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ISU 12th in new AP

Cybyassociation said:
Because ranking and seeding are not the same thing. Ranking is done by voters. Seeding is done by a committee. The AP likes wins. UNI is ranked higher, and deserves to be ranked higher, because they have the wins. They have 15 straight victories. They are a hot team.

ISU deserves to be seeded higher. They have a better SOS and RPI. They have more top 50 wins.
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Of UNI's fifteen straight wins:
1 has been ranked (at home)
only 5 have been in the top 150 rpi
2 of those five have been on the road
 
CoKane said:
So, I still haven't heard any reason why UNI or Wichita deserves to be ranked above Iowa State. If your win-loss record is all that matters then why isn't UC Davis ranked with a 21-4 record? Valparaiso is 25-4, Iona is 23-6, Murray State is 24-4, Sam Houston State is 22-5, and Stephan F Austin is 22-4. Why aren't they in the top 25? They have good records.
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We could take it a step further and just rank all D1 schools by win percentage. That seems to be what the UNI fans are arguing.
 
mctallerton said:
Of UNI's fifteen straight wins:
1 has been ranked (at home)
only 5 have been in the top 150 rpi
2 of those five have been on the road
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You forgot to mention that the ONE ranked team they've beaten, shouldn't probably be ranked.
 
Cyclonestate78 said:
UNI is a hot team? Who wouldn't be hot playing against the collection of community college teams that comprise the Valley? Honest question...
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The teams they are playing are relative to their talent level. It's not like taking Kentucky and dropping them into the MVC.
 
Cybyassociation said:
They are independent of each other and I've answered this. Yes.


If that's how you want to call it, then sure.
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Just want to make sure I understand this, if you were able to vote for the top 25 teams in the country you would not vote for who you thought were the best 25 teams? Or if you were to seed the NCAA tournament you wouldn't seed by who you thought were the best 25 teams? Can't have both.
 
clonedude said:
Correct.

So the opposing argument is this.... UNI should be ranked higher in the AP because some AP voters are brainless idiots that have no business ranking college basketball teams in the first place.

Wow, what a great argument. Nonsense. It's completely illogical. Whatever. It doesn't really matter that much, as long as the committee isn't influenced by the AP poll when seeding the tourney.

It just irritates me when people argue that UNI should be ranked higher than ISU. No they shouldn't. Their entire body of work is nothing compared with ours.
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I'll grant UNI fans that it can be a fun conversation although a stretch looking at SOS and RPI. WSU should not even be in the top 15 or maybe 20, it is idiotic beyond argument yet they are ranked 11th.

If either team has a legitimate path to being ranked around 10th/11th they need to win out and dominate the other one. At this point I hope one of them does to earn it, I don't think both could possibly prove they deserve to be that high unless both win 2-3 NCAA tournament games against decent teams.

All this "Cinderella" talk needs to end regarding these two. The expectations for these teams now is that they make the Elite 8 or nearly make the Elite 8, anything below that and it's playing below expectations. Cinderella doesn't flirt with the top ten without beating anyone good, overwhelming media favorite does that, not Cinderella.

The UNI team that beat KU was a Cinderella, these WSU and UNI teams are being sold to us as a Goliath, not David.
 
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mctallerton said:
Just want to make sure I understand this, if you were able to vote for the top 25 teams in the country you would not vote for who you thought were the best 25 teams? Or if you were to seed the NCAA tournament you wouldn't seed by who you thought were the best 25 teams? Can't have both.
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You're struggling with this. The AP does not seed the tournament. That is done by a committee. Therefore, they are two separate entities and two separate rankings. You realize when you take the seedings, list them out top to bottom, they aren't the same as the AP's ranking list, right?
 
Cybyassociation said:
You're struggling with this. The AP does not seed the tournament. That is done by a committee. Therefore, they are two separate entities and two separate rankings. You realize when you take the seedings, list them out top to bottom, they aren't the same as the AP's ranking list, right?
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The only thing I am struggling with is your logic. I have said 3-4 times now I am talking about what you would do. I understand that the AP does not seed the tournament, that is done by a committee, I am asking you why you would rank UNI ahead of ISU but think ISU is the better team. You keep saying they are independent of each other but your thought on why you would rank UNI higher, than a team you consider better, is not. So quit trying to justify what the voters and the committee will do, you have said that you would vote UNI higher in a ranking but would seed ISU higher in the tournament.
 
Cybyassociation said:
The teams they are playing are relative to their talent level. It's not like taking Kentucky and dropping them into the MVC.
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Ah... so this idea that UNI is so good because they are 26-2 and so hot because they have won 15 straight doesn't actually mean they are good at all. They are good based on the complete lack of talent on the teams they have played against in compiling their 26-2 record. Finally... we can agree on something.

So in looking at the "talent" level of the teams around them in the rankings and the talent level that they play against night in and night out we are in agreement that UNI doesn't belong ranked among them. I 100% agree with you. You made an excellent point.
 
HFCS said:
AP voters can vote however they want. They can value SOS as well.

If they're a good AP voter they're not going to rank purely on record. Many do and that's why you get stuff like a #11 team with no good wins. It doesn't mean they have to, are directed to, are are good at ranking teams when they do that.
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Winner.
 
Rank the following teams. This isn't meant to hurt or help my argument. I just want to see how people would "vote" for these teams. Don't cheat, that'll take the fun out of it:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Wins[/TD]
[TD]Losses[/TD]
[TD]SOS[/TD]
[TD]RPI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD].6861[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]B[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD].5728[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD].5770[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD].6273[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD].5977[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD].5048[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD].6356[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]H[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD].6251[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD].6127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD].5769[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Some of teams are obvious, but I just want to see how things turn out.

Edit: Posted too soon...meant to hit Go Advanced. Give me a minute to get the table set up.
 
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Cybyassociation said:
Which one of these teams are ranked:

21-4
22-5
26-2
23-6
22-4

If you said 26-2, you are correct! The AP likes W's. All of the teams you listed have a few more L's. The AP doesn't like L's for these mid major teams.
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Do you agree with either/both of the following statements?:
1) The AP does not attempt to rank the BEST 25 teams in the nation including the proper order.
2) In general the AP is POOR at ranking the BEST 25 teams.

I believe that the AP does attempt to rank the best teams in proper order and is not great at it. My take is that Cybyassociation believes the AP doesn't attempt to rank the best teams in proper order. This difference accounts for much of the "difference of opinion" in this thread which is really just a difference in perspective.
 
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Cybyassociation said:
I've never made the argument or statement that UNI is better than ISU.
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Only that they deserve to be ranked higher than ISU. To bring up your earlier example... that is like saying that had Marshall gone undefeated in football they would have deserved to be ranked up there next to Oregon and Alabama because they won their games regardless of the fact that Marshall didn't play any teams with a pulse. You probably think they would have deserved to be in the college football playoff too.

UNI has yet to prove that they are a good basketball team. Sure... they have proven that they can beat a bunch of relatively talentless Valley teams but what does that mean? It means they are as good or as deserving as teams that have beaten far better competition consistently throughout the season? You and I both know that simply isn't true. The true worth of a team is based on their full resume... who did you beat, where was the game played, how good were your opponents, etc...
 
CyEyeGuy said:
Do you agree with either/both of the following statements?:
1) The AP does not attempt to rank the BEST 25 teams in the nation including the proper order.
2) In general the AP is POOR at ranking the BEST 25 teams.

I believe that the AP does attempt to rank the best teams in proper order and is not great at it. My take is that Cybyassociation believes the AP doesn't attempt to rank the best teams in proper order. This difference accounts for much of the "difference of opinion" in this thread which is really just a difference in perspective.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with the bolded. Obviously, you've got voters with differences in opinion as to what really matters too.
 
Cybyassociation said:
I'd agree with the bolded. Obviously, you've got voters with differences in opinion as to what really matters too.
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So the fact that the AP voters are not good at what they do, that means UNI is justified in being ranked higher than ISU? Wut?

Like I said, you've now lost this argument every way possible. Move on.
 
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