Game Thoughts Cincin Loss

[madguy30]

Scheme does not ever take a backseat on defense. Football is littered with talented defenses that aren't as good as they should be (or good at all) because of varying schematic/coaching reasons.

I will preface this by saying this is not me saying that Heacock should be fired or that there should be a wholesale scheme change. Heacock has served us well with this scheme and is the reason for a lot of success. Now that that's out of the way it's also fair to point out that programs with talent don't run this system because it has glaring inherent weaknessed. I've said this before but this structure has no natural edge meaning you have to spill everything from a scheme standpoint because unless you just happen to get into the perfect call, you're asking someone to set an edge that's in no position to do so. When you have to spill everything, there's a big chance that you have overaggressive play by LBs and DBs that result in huge cutback lanes especially against teams that are good at running outside zone. See the first TD play from Cinci. Sure, we can point out that basically no one on the back side was sound, but that's the risk you run. I've talked about this before, it's not new, and it's not the first time we've gotten got in the running game like this. It's a bug of the system. IMO, good run defenses set hard edges and it's the one thing that I really don't like about the system.

So, for this structure to work and be sound against the run, you need very good LB play. LB is hard in any system. I'd say it's the hardest position in football because of the responsibilities they all have and the physical attributes it take. We haven't had good LB play for awhile and it doesn't really matter who was playing. This system just will not work if your baseline linebacker isn't good. Your DL is taking up bodies for LBs and DBs to clean up and they need to do so.

This isn't some dire "we're ******" post. The defense will be fine. These are just things that are going to happen once or twice a year like we've seen. Sometimes the offense overcomes, and sometimes it doesn't. If you wanted a change, personally what I would do is develop some packaging where you go to a 5 man front consisting of the 3 DL that we currently use plus one more anchor/edge player and then a hybrid type of LB/pass rusher who can hold an edge. I don't think this is some huge personnel lift as I think we've had the body types in the past and on this roster. You drop a LB and drop a safety and you concentrate the running game to the middle. We have some stuff like this in alignment but we don't change personnel.

If there were a Will McDonald, Mike Rose (preferably freshman speed but that's a different discussion) or two or three of that level of player at each level of the defense, I'm guessing the scheme wouldn't be questioned as much.

Sure it has to be run well but having speed in those areas makes a ton of difference regardless of what's being run.

 

[ISUTex]

That’s great. Doesn’t have anything to do with the thread though.

I was replying a post (in this thread) that said we run a 3-4.

 

[1SEIACLONE]

If there were a Will McDonald, Mike Rose (preferably freshman speed but that's a different discussion) or two or three of that level of player at each level of the defense, I'm guessing the scheme wouldn't be questioned as much.

Sure it has to be run well but having speed in those areas makes a ton of difference regardless of what's being run.

But if you have to have superb athletes like those you mentioned are required to make it work really well, what does that say about the scheme itself? We are not going to be able to reload and find those types of players year after year. It was great when it was first introduced, but we have not expanded on the formation, and teams are figuring out the flaws in it. If you are not evolving the defense, it will fall behind, which we have done.
The squawks for years played a basic 4-3 defense, and teams figured out that if they could get a WR or TE on one of the slower run stopping linebackers they had created a matchup nightmare for them. The squawks looked at the problem and switched over to a 4-2-1 defense, where they found a smaller quicker LB that could now keep up with that TE or WR but still provide run support. They change, what they were doing enough to make it work. If we do not. have the personal to run the defense we should move away from it or do something that surprises the offense and keeps them guessing, zone blitz or pass rush, differently. You have to speed up the offense and they you get mistakes and turnovers.

 

[madguy30]

But if you have to have superb athletes like those you mentioned are required to make it work really well, what does that say about the scheme itself? We are not going to be able to reload and find those types of players year after year. It was great when it was first introduced, but we have not expanded on the formation, and teams are figuring out the flaws in it. If you are not evolving the defense, it will fall behind, which we have done.
The squawks for years played a basic 4-3 defense, and teams figured out that if they could get a WR or TE on one of the slower run stopping linebackers they had created a matchup nightmare for them. The squawks looked at the problem and switched over to a 4-2-1 defense, where they found a smaller quicker LB that could now keep up with that TE or WR but still provide run support. They change, what they were doing enough to make it work. If we do not. have the personal to run the defense we should move away from it or do something that surprises the offense and keeps them guessing, zone blitz or pass rush, differently. You have to speed up the offense and they you get mistakes and turnovers.

With those kinds of players in peak form (those two specifically weren't at their peak at the same time) scheme wouldn't matter as much.

I think running the 3 cloud has been a way to help cover up areas of weakness.

Fwiw I'm not saying they should just stick with it 'just 'cuz'; I'm thinking the coaches have run through all sorts of options and have concluded that going with a 4-3 or 3-4 won't fit their personnel.

I don't think ISU has much overall speed in the DL or LBs which is going to be an issue no matter what.

 

[Kettes]

Our offense has not shown the ability all season to go out and score 40 or more points, on a game by game basis, thinking we were going to out score them after giving up 31 points in the half was foolish. You just cannot allow yourself to get into such a hole.

This is an underrated comment! I totally agree that after giving up just 14 points, the defensive plan needed to be changed. The starting plan wasn't working; at all.



Unfortunately, we let Tyson punch us in the mouth until we gave up 31 points. I don't see how this is anything other than a coaching mistake.

 

[Cyhig]

This is still being discussed? Time to move on to Colorado. I think the vast majority of us knew this team was not going to go 12-0.

Defense played great in the second half. Offense stalled out inside the opponents 35 yard line. It happens sometimes.

Time to take on Coach Prime. Let's get back in the W column before another bye week

 

[cyclones122]

Most people knew the team wasn't going 12-0. This was going to be a tough road game even before the two corners got hurt. Cincy also looks better than was expected. Most important now is to not let it snowball. Go to Boulder and beat Deion, then get 2 weeks to get the young corners really acclimated and make necessary changes. And Pray Konrardy is ready to go in 3 weeks for the home stretch. Nothing is off the table for this team. Nothing.

 

[SolarGarlic]

To win titles you have to have elite talent, but to be a very good team it becomes more coaching and scheme to take lesser talent and have them playing at a high level. The only way ISU could come close getting in a title game would be to have a QB that is playing on Heisman level of play, otherwise it's not really possible. The Blue Chip Ratio is a real deal and since it measures a schools stars in recruiting, we are never going to do well on such a scale. That does not mean that we cannot make very good players, you just have to find kids that were mis rated in high school or underrated . Montgomery and Hall would be such players.

The Blue Chip Ratio is just teams with a chance to win the national championship. Simply titling "who has had the best recruiting classes the last 4 years?" is about the dumbest thing that gets attention in this sport. Oh, the teams with the best recruits have the best chance to win? What a thought!

I know that wasn't really the point, but I can't believe how much credit Bud Elliot gets for creating that. Who couldn't name off 17 teams and pick the national champion?

 

[Kettes]

This is still being discussed?

I'm sorry. I thought this thread was "Game Thoughts Cincin Loss " not "Moving on to Colorado."

It's only Monday. Let people vent. If you don't want to hear it, why come to this thread in the first place?

 

[crs8975]

I didn't read through all 9 pages of thoughts, but here are mine. There are 4 quarters to a game and we only showed up to 2 on Defense. My biggest takeaway from the 1st was our complete inability to tackle. Would Cincy have still scored on some of the drives, sure. But they sure scored a hell of a lot faster when we're missing 3-4 tackles every other play. Hope the team gets it figured out before Saturday. The altitude in Boulder is going to take it's toll.

 

[Letterkenny]

I said it before, but I think that what the analyst said right after we went to the half was dead on. We needed to bring down a safety to help against the run. I think we've had the luxury of doing that a lot with two great corners, and now that we have neither, we're finding that we still need to do that if we want to stop the run.

That will put more pressure on our inexperienced corners, but we might be able to mix that up to at least keep our opponents guessing, and from there, it's just trial by fire for them. I have no doubt that they'll improve as they go. Once our offense started controlling time of possession, it helped out the defense tremendously, so we'll need a lot more of that going forward.

My biggest complaint is that we didn't seem to adjust the defense to slow down their running game until we had already given up 31 points in one half. Only then, did we think we needed to change something up. Love our defense's half time adjustments over the years, but my god, can't you adjust after 2-3 possessions instead of waiting until they've run the ball for 200yds+ in one half?

 

[Antihawk240]

I often feel this staff is a "stick to the script" type group. That is very apparent to the Tale of 2 Halves vibes we get pretty much every game. Offense or Defense doesnt matter. They will Stick to the Script the entire 1st half, assemble over halftime and talk about adjustments then come back out at halftime. That's awesome, they are able to adjust......but I wonder if there is a way they can do those adjustments during the game and not wait until halftime.

 

[Cyclonepride]

My biggest complaint is that we didn't seem to adjust the defense to slow down their running game until we had already given up 31 points in one half. Only then, did we think we needed to change something up. Love our defense's half time adjustments over the years, but my god, can't you adjust after 2-3 possessions instead of waiting until they've run the ball for 200yds+ in one half?

They may have been making smaller adjustments that just didn't work, but I'm not sure. Larger adjustments may work better when they can gather at halftime to discuss them.

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

Overall I’m disappointed in the loss, but they did fight back to make it a game. So I feel less bad than after the first half.

Kicking injury bite is bad today. Kicking balls to the 10. I count 12 points likley missed. Apparently they aren’t confident to have him even kick a 32 yarder.

I don't want to sound harsh but even as a walk-on, how can you not even at least get close to the end zone on a kickoff? If you're going to be a D1 kicker, getting it within the 5 yard line shouldn't feel like too much to ask

 

[Cyhig]

I'm sorry. I thought this thread was "Game Thoughts Cincin Loss " not "Moving on to Colorado."

It's only Monday. Let people vent. If you don't want to hear it, why come to this thread in the first place?

I guess I've been a fan long enough to get used to losing. I personally enjoyed the comments on whether the defense should change, even though we all call Heacock the "Professor"

Let the Professor do his magic. Support the team. And move on to the next game

 

[Clonefan32]

I guess my thoughts are simple. A healthy Dom Orange makes this run defense workable. A limited Dom Orange makes this run defense horrible. If he's not 100 percent we have to make an alignment change.

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

Right, but we run a 3 down linemen front with 3 lb's. Many times we only have 5 guys in the box which is a joke. The Giants and Steelers system usually has 4 LBs and 3 defensive linemen we have NEVER done that.

My point is, if you look at the best college defenses of all time: Miami early 2000s, Ohio State 2010 to now, Bama 2012 to 2020, Georgia - they all use a 4 down front.
The best NFL defenses of all time: Eagles and Chiefs D's last 5 years, Ravens of early 2000s, Bears and Eagles of 80s/90s = also 4 down defensive line fronts.

I don't subscribe to the idea that we are smarter than everyone else (drop 8 and rush nobody). We have had some nice seasons but I think if the goal is a Big 12 championship, this defense will not elevate us there. It is going to be harder to recruit Defensive Ends in this scheme. Who wants to attack a double team on EVERY play.

I agree....the 3-3-5 was innovative in a time where we were playing spread offenses almost every single week....that is not quite the case anymore for the current Big 12. This game felt like an exact replica of the Kansas game from last year. Dug ourselves too big of a hole and then the offense had to try and do everything it could to get back in the game.

As frustrating as our defense was, I also didn't care for our offensive play calling on Saturday. Why we run out routes or shallow crossers on 3rd and long is beyond me.

I'm also convinced we will never have a competent OL.

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

Its not a defense thats gonna hold teams to 200-250 yards of total offense. We are always going to give up yardage here and there. Its almost always gonna look like **** if you just look at the stat box. How we play in the red zone determines how effective it is.

I'd like them to not even get to the red zone, personally

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

How about our play calling? Anyone think that was a factor in the loss? Runs up the middle against an All Conference run stuffer, short passes when we’ve been told their safety’s & CBs might be the weakest in the Big 12? Much of the time it seemed to me that the Manning playbook was in use!

Also puzzled why CINCY seemed to focus more on the pass vs the run in the 2nd half, which had gouged us badly in the first half. Yes, we finally adjusted and performed better against the run in the 2nd half, but their selection of pass vs run seemed much different. Was that first half the worst half of FB throughout the 10 years of CMC’s time at ISU—both coaching and players?

this.....as poor as the defensive performance was, the offensive play calling was abysmal. Running out routes and shallow crossers 6 yards short of the line to gain is a terrible strategy

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

So you're basically saying we might be the 2nd best team in the Big 12 any given year but we'll still have huge talent gaps between us and the best Big 12 team?

I dont agree, unless Tech just buys titles now I don't think anyone will ever dominate this league like Oklahoma used to. You also have to factor in coaching, which I think ISU has an advantage over most other conferences teams.

well I'd say at the moment Tech is on their way to easily steamrolling the Big 12 slate en route to a conference title game.....oh, and they have a billionaire donor - something we don't have and I'm sure none of the other Big 12 teams have either.