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WWE Payback (2016) Thread

Gunnerclone said:
1) It's hard to tell what is real reaction and what is production reaction in WWE these days.
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Agreed. In spite of the fans that 100% buy into what WWE is selling them and think the product is genuine and pristine (basically, the anti-IWC), WWE clearly tampers with crowd noise, especially on SmackDown where they tape the program days in advance and edit it into the product they want to convey with their talent in terms of face and heel. It's most obvious on guys like Roman Reigns and Kevin Owens, where crowd reactions are completely different on Raw and SmackDown. However, they also clearly manipulate crowd noise on Raw as well, by cutting the crowd mics when the crowd isn't giving them the response they want, as well as at times pumping in cheers and boos into the feed.

That alone makes it really hard to gauge what the true reaction any crowd is giving any particular wrestler.

It is even moreso with VV. Being their gimmick is of the Vaudeville and silent film era, it's really hard to tell whether creative is playing off that by silencing the crowd (and, being that they're a villainous group (badumtss), they shouldn't be getting a lot of crowd noise anyway), or if they're just not connecting whatsoever and it's a dead crowd.

What makes this even harder is the Vaudevillians is a "made for TV" gimmick, with all of the production that goes into their gimmick, it looks fairly natural on TV. However, from what I've read online, those people that have seen it live, whether at an NXT show or main roster, it's weird and not easy to connect with at a show.

Gunnerclone said:
2) I'd rather that than them getting cheered, so there's still hope they can create heel heat, which is pretty much impossible in this day and age
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Another area I agree. Let's look at the division to this point.

New Day - an antihero(ish) group that really has made a turn towards face (although they still have heelish tendencies)
Enzo and Cass - outright babyface
The Dudleyz - outright heels
The Usos - faces that have a mixed crowd reaction
Lucha Dragons - faces that have been criminally misused as a tag team and appear to be headed in separate directions
The Ascension - heels that have been criminally misused from the beginning (never should have been altered into a cheap knockoff of LOD) and have jobbed for so long they don't have a shred of credibility left
Social Outcasts - who knows what these guys are
LoN - outright heels, but rumors are they're about to be broken up entirely
Golden Truth - outright babyface comedy team - but is it ever actually going to happen, or is this a several month-long cocktease?
Primo and Epico - nobody knows.
Gallows and Anderson - outright heels that will likely be cheered as faces. Attacking the Usos should have put nuclear heat on them, but instead the crowd cheered on the beating (once again, the writers not understanding what the fans want)

WWE really could use a traditional heel team like VV. Just not sure they're not going to get the Ascension treatment.

Gunnerclone said:
3) I'm turning in to a big VV mark I think they are great
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I have mixed feelings towards VV. I have always liked the gimmick as it's unique, but I never thought it had a prayer of working on the main roster without getting a lot of help from creative via video packages (kind of like Primo and Epico are getting). You also have no idea what these guys can do on the mic - they don't talk, and the gimmick doesn't allow for much talking. Plus they debuted on SmackDown, and that never really goes over well.

I didn't like the idea of them being promoted in the first place, and I get the feeling they're going to die a slow death.
 
With Chyna passing away, makes me wonder if they're going to stop pretending that she doesn't exist, at least with a slide on tonight on SmackDown or on programming next week, or if she'll get the full Chris Benoit treatment now that she's gone.
 
I think RAw was decent Monday. I like that Shane is in "charge", but it still doesn't sit well with me how we had this huge build up with him vs. Taker and then after losing Vince just says "oh lets see how you do...."


Cesaro is finally getting a personality to match his wrestling. Now just get rid of the stupid swing and I'd like him more.

Enzo is money and I think will create a lot of opportunity for himself. I'd like to see WWE let Cass do more.

LoN is boring to me. Nothing else to really say about it.

I feel like the WWE is too unbalanced these days....too many personalities trying too hard to shove gimmicks down our throats. However, I'm not really sure how I'd fix it. I remind myself that lots of famous wrestlers we've come to love over the years started out with various gimmicks that didn't stick.
 
jdoggivjc said:
Agreed. In spite of the fans that 100% buy into what WWE is selling them and think the product is genuine and pristine (basically, the anti-IWC), WWE clearly tampers with crowd noise, especially on SmackDown where they tape the program days in advance and edit it into the product they want to convey with their talent in terms of face and heel. It's most obvious on guys like Roman Reigns and Kevin Owens, where crowd reactions are completely different on Raw and SmackDown. However, they also clearly manipulate crowd noise on Raw as well, by cutting the crowd mics when the crowd isn't giving them the response they want, as well as at times pumping in cheers and boos into the feed.

That alone makes it really hard to gauge what the true reaction any crowd is giving any particular wrestler.

It is even moreso with VV. Being their gimmick is of the Vaudeville and silent film era, it's really hard to tell whether creative is playing off that by silencing the crowd (and, being that they're a villainous group (badumtss), they shouldn't be getting a lot of crowd noise anyway), or if they're just not connecting whatsoever and it's a dead crowd.

What makes this even harder is the Vaudevillians is a "made for TV" gimmick, with all of the production that goes into their gimmick, it looks fairly natural on TV. However, from what I've read online, those people that have seen it live, whether at an NXT show or main roster, it's weird and not easy to connect with at a show.



Another area I agree. Let's look at the division to this point.

New Day - an antihero(ish) group that really has made a turn towards face (although they still have heelish tendencies)
Enzo and Cass - outright babyface
The Dudleyz - outright heels
The Usos - faces that have a mixed crowd reaction
Lucha Dragons - faces that have been criminally misused as a tag team and appear to be headed in separate directions
The Ascension - heels that have been criminally misused from the beginning (never should have been altered into a cheap knockoff of LOD) and have jobbed for so long they don't have a shred of credibility left
Social Outcasts - who knows what these guys are
LoN - outright heels, but rumors are they're about to be broken up entirely
Golden Truth - outright babyface comedy team - but is it ever actually going to happen, or is this a several month-long cocktease?
Primo and Epico - nobody knows.
Gallows and Anderson - outright heels that will likely be cheered as faces. Attacking the Usos should have put nuclear heat on them, but instead the crowd cheered on the beating (once again, the writers not understanding what the fans want)

WWE really could use a traditional heel team like VV. Just not sure they're not going to get the Ascension treatment.



I have mixed feelings towards VV. I have always liked the gimmick as it's unique, but I never thought it had a prayer of working on the main roster without getting a lot of help from creative via video packages (kind of like Primo and Epico are getting). You also have no idea what these guys can do on the mic - they don't talk, and the gimmick doesn't allow for much talking. Plus they debuted on SmackDown, and that never really goes over well.

I didn't like the idea of them being promoted in the first place, and I get the feeling they're going to die a slow death.
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I'd actually really like to see a new entrance for VV at Payback. I'm thinking they should lose all the b and w stuff, keep the announcer guy on the video board, but roll out an old timey piano with a guy "playing" it or something idk just lose the production stuff. I also think they are perfect for an old style heel manager ala Jimmy Hart.

I used to be so blah on managers but now I miss true managers so much.
 
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This is really the first time I've heard Aiden English and Simon Gotch talk (well, as for English, at least since he started with the Vaudevillians) - they're not Enzo and Cass on the mic, but they can hold their own.
 
Need to watch this before WWE has this taken down. It's Ambrose and Zayn vs. Owens and HHH at the Paris house show yesterday - and it's fantastic.

[video=youtube;tutpQfrqvZE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tutpQfrqvZE[/video]
 
Don't get having Finn drop the title at a house show. Why couldn't this of just happened at NXT Takeover Dallas?
 
CycloneRulzzz said:
Don't get having Finn drop the title at a house show. Why couldn't this of just happened at NXT Takeover Dallas?
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CoKane said:
To protect the demon probably
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That, and perhaps they didn't actually know when they wanted to call up Balor. I mean, if the call up was imminent, you do it at SmarkaMania - but they didn't. Perhaps the way Gallows and Anderson debuted and how the crowd reacted to it caused creative to change their plans and call him up now - and by all accounts he will be at Raw on Monday.

The only real answer that makes sense to me is plans change.
 
So tomorrow, one of the matches billed for Monday is Gallows/Anderson vs Usos,

Payback is next Sunday.

Probably in one of the most unsurprising moments ever, it'll probably expand into Gallows/Anderson/Styles vs Usos/Reigns.
 
I hope they don't just bring Balor in and debut him right away. I think they should take him off of "TV" and air some kind of video package or like Wyatt-esque vignettes on RAW with him first that messes with whoever he's going to be feuding with.

BUILD PEOPLE WWE.
 
Gunnerclone said:
I hope they don't just bring Balor in and debut him right away. I think they should take him off of "TV" and air some kind of video package or like Wyatt-esque vignettes on RAW with him first that messes with whoever he's going to be feuding with.

BUILD PEOPLE WWE.
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Ordinarily I'd agree with this. If Finn Bálor were debuting on Raw by himself, absolutely build him with video packages, promos, etc. Debut him the night after WrestleMania. Make this big.

However, there's something else in the works, and it's Bullet Club (or perhaps Bálor Club - whatever they're going to call it). And all parties involved, WWE, Mr. McMahon, and the individual wrestlers themselves, have already been building this online and on Twitter for at least 6 months.

IIRC, Finn Bálor debuted his "Bálor Club Worldwide" T-shirt during the Dusty Rhodes Classic, which was more than 6 months ago. Even if it was later, it was still well before Styles, Gallows, and Anderson signed with WWE. Perhaps all parties involved had been having discussions with Mr. McMahon and all knew all were signing with WWE when contracts with NJPW were up and that's what led to the Bálor Club T-Shirt, but not being a huge fan of either NJPW nor ROH I didn't pick up on the reference. I don't feel bad about it, either, because much bigger marks than me didn't initially pick up on it, either, or at least didn't discuss it online until much later.

That being said, ever since the trio signed with WWE, it has been a near nonstop promo fest for all of the parties involved. Even Mr. McMahon has made Bullet Club references on his Twitter. Finn and Bayley and even Sami Zayn have been toying around with Bullet/Bálor Club references at NXT house shows. Finn is near nonstop with his references to such on his Twitter. WWE has not been shy in referring to the trio's history with NJPW (mentioning them specifically), something it almost never does with wrestlers coming in from another organization.

So if the plan is to use Finn's debut as him initiating Bullet Club (or whatever they may call it) in WWE (and why wouldn't they - Bullet Club was his baby in NJPW), they absolutely have been building it for the last 6 months - it's just been a nontraditional build. Now, I understand that some fans may want him to debut as the demon, and that would be freaking cool. But, as I have been saying, Finn's history is rooted in Prince Devitt, and Bullet Club was his thing. I think it would be even more fitting to debut him in that fashion, especially if their Club runs roughshot over the WWE roster for the next X number of months.
 
jdoggivjc said:
Ordinarily I'd agree with this. If Finn Bálor were debuting on Raw by himself, absolutely build him with video packages, promos, etc. Debut him the night after WrestleMania. Make this big.

However, there's something else in the works, and it's Bullet Club (or perhaps Bálor Club - whatever they're going to call it). And all parties involved, WWE, Mr. McMahon, and the individual wrestlers themselves, have already been building this online and on Twitter for at least 6 months.

IIRC, Finn Bálor debuted his "Bálor Club Worldwide" T-shirt during the Dusty Rhodes Classic, which was more than 6 months ago. Even if it was later, it was still well before Styles, Gallows, and Anderson signed with WWE. Perhaps all parties involved had been having discussions with Mr. McMahon and all knew all were signing with WWE when contracts with NJPW were up and that's what led to the Bálor Club T-Shirt, but not being a huge fan of either NJPW nor ROH I didn't pick up on the reference. I don't feel bad about it, either, because much bigger marks than me didn't initially pick up on it, either, or at least didn't discuss it online until much later.

That being said, ever since the trio signed with WWE, it has been a near nonstop promo fest for all of the parties involved. Even Mr. McMahon has made Bullet Club references on his Twitter. Finn and Bayley and even Sami Zayn have been toying around with Bullet/Bálor Club references at NXT house shows. Finn is near nonstop with his references to such on his Twitter. WWE has not been shy in referring to the trio's history with NJPW (mentioning them specifically), something it almost never does with wrestlers coming in from another organization.

So if the plan is to use Finn's debut as him initiating Bullet Club (or whatever they may call it) in WWE (and why wouldn't they - Bullet Club was his baby in NJPW), they absolutely have been building it for the last 6 months - it's just been a nontraditional build. Now, I understand that some fans may want him to debut as the demon, and that would be freaking cool. But, as I have been saying, Finn's history is rooted in Prince Devitt, and Bullet Club was his thing. I think it would be even more fitting to debut him in that fashion, especially if their Club runs roughshot over the WWE roster for the next X number of months.
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Obviously I'm not going to be mad about the Bullet Club, I'm a big mark for factions, especially heel factions if that is how they go. In a perfect world, they would get the Bullet Club formation out of the way early on the show, and then have a surprise member added at the end of the show. Probably too much to ask though, right?
 
If anyone's up for a bit of a read with satirical commentary on the decade-long downfall of TNA, I suggest "Total Nonstop Asinine". It's done by a contributor to Cageside Seats, and it's pretty good stuff.


 
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