saturdays referees

[cycloneG]

Thanks for the information Brent.

I think you also have to look at games against unranked opponents. ISU is a team that doesn't foul a lot no matter who they're playing. They don't play an aggressive style of basketball. They don't fight for offensive rebounds and they don't pressure the ball handler to force turnovers. Those are two areas that generate a lot of fouls. ISU should generally have fewer fouls than any of their opponents. The problem is officials are going to try to balance out foul totals to make it look like there wasn't any favoritism shown. This hurts ISU greatly when they play aggressive teams. Most ranked teams play an aggressive style of ball. Despite ISU ending up with fewer fouls, ranked teams will have an advantage because they'll be able to get more second chance points and points off turnovers. Those are two areas that ISU will always lose in when playing aggressive teams.

 

[flander1649]

college refs have allowed the game to degenerate into a medieval gladiator battle. When kids are young they are taught to use their feet to play defense, but if you watch a college game today every single player grabs and hand checks to stay with their player defensively. It's got to the point where when they do try to clean it up you end up having a game like we did against North Dakota and there's 85 fouls and it takes 3 and half hours to play.

This is what every KSU game is like. It is the style of play they want. KSU got the refs calling a bad game which is what they want every time out.

 

[clones_jer]

Perhaps a ref could clarify this....

But I didn't know that a team could call a timeout during a pass while the ball was in mid-air?

They can't. But a ref has to verify they are actually calling a timeout, so they take the time to look at the coach or whoever is calling it to make sure. Then as long as the ball was in player control when they initially heard it they grant the time out.

Also, if they mess up and call it during a pass or when the other team has the ball, the timeout is granted anyway with no penalty to anyone.

 

[Ames]

And consider that in several of these games, the Cyclones were fouling late to stop the clock and they still were called for less fouls. The officials have had little to no impact on anything IMO.

I don't think it's accurate at all. ISU should have less fouls. We don't press, we don't trap, we play pretty disciplined ball. It's a style that lends itself to less fouls. We should have less. When ISU plays an aggressive team if the fouls are equal the refs probably did poorly.

With that said the refs aren't making us lose games. But... there is no way you can say the refs haven't effected the outcome of any game this season.

 

[brentblum]

Thanks for the information Brent.

I think you also have to look at games against unranked opponents. ISU is a team that doesn't foul a lot no matter who they're playing. They don't play an aggressive style of basketball. They don't fight for offensive rebounds and they don't pressure the ball handler to force turnovers. Those are two areas that generate a lot of fouls. ISU should generally have fewer fouls than any of their opponents. The problem is officials are going to try to balance out foul totals to make it look like there wasn't any favoritism shown. This hurts ISU greatly when they play aggressive teams. Most ranked teams play an aggressive style of ball. Despite ISU ending up with fewer fouls, ranked teams will have an advantage because they'll be able to get more second chance points and points off turnovers. Those are two areas that ISU will always lose in when playing aggressive teams.

That's a good point and one I think has some truth to it. The aggressive team generally gets the benefit of the doubt. It's been that way for a while and worked to ISU's advantage during their successful years. But, they can't afford to play that way to some extent because they don't have the depth to giveaway fouls. So, they are in a tough spot. With that said, I truly don't believe the officials have any sort of vendetta against the Cyclones. If some feel that way, I respect their opinion, but don't agree with it.

 

[clones_jer]

FYI, Below are the fouls called per team in games against ranked opponents.

K-State 24, I-State 23
Baylor 13, I-State 12
Kansas 20, I-State 14
Texas 20, I-State 18
Duke 19, I-State 17
Cal 17, I-State 14
UNI 14, I-State 14

And consider that in several of these games, the Cyclones were fouling late to stop the clock and they still were called for less fouls. The officials have had little to no impact on anything IMO.

In my experience, aggressive teams generally end up with more fouls and more points than their opponants.

 

[abcguyks]

FYI, Below are the fouls called per team in games against ranked opponents.

K-State 24, I-State 23
Baylor 13, I-State 12
Kansas 20, I-State 14
Texas 20, I-State 18
Duke 19, I-State 17
Cal 17, I-State 14
UNI 14, I-State 14

And consider that in several of these games, the Cyclones were fouling late to stop the clock and they still were called for less fouls. The officials have had little to no impact on anything IMO.

Good information, but I see that data a bit differently at least for the B12 games. With the possible exception of the KSU game, I seem to remember that we were getting fouled on purpose near the end of those games because we are so poor at shooting free throws. I'd be willing to bet that at least 5 of the opposing teams' fouls in those games were made just to put us on the line instead of letting us make a relatively easy shot.

Can't use that excuse for our earlier games because our free throw capabilities were not yet widely known.

By no means am I saying that refereeing made a difference in those games, but it sure makes them frustrating to watch when the officiating is inconsistent at best.

Don't even get me started about all of the moving screens that KU gets away with.:skeptical:

 

[clones_jer]

I don't think it's accurate at all. ISU should have less fouls. We don't press, we don't trap, we play pretty disciplined ball. It's a style that lends itself to less fouls. We should have less. When ISU plays an aggressive team if the fouls are equal the refs probably did poorly.

With that said the refs aren't making us lose games. But... there is no way you can say the refs haven't effected the outcome of any game this season.

Player A is more athletic, gets in better position, and has a higher basketball iq than Player B. Player A seemingly gets all the calls and wins more often. It must be because the refs want Player A to win.

 

[DaddyMac]

They can't. But a ref has to verify they are actually calling a timeout, so they take the time to look at the coach or whoever is calling it to make sure. Then as long as the ball was in player control when they initially heard it they grant the time out.

Also, if they mess up and call it during a pass or when the other team has the ball, the timeout is granted anyway with no penalty to anyone.

Thanks.

That's what I thought.

Occurred about the 5 minute mark of the second half. We were pressuring the ball in the backcourt, the KSU player lobbed a rather lazy pass to the frontcourt corner near the scorers table. I really thought Colvin was going to pick it off. As the ball was in flight - the KSU bench called a timeout and one of the officials closer to the baseline granted it.

I didn't even consider it all that bang/bang. And it was a fairly lengthy pass. Couldn't believe that official granted the TO.

 

[clones_jer]

Thanks.

That's what I thought.

Occurred about the 5 minute mark of the second half. We were pressuring the ball in the backcourt, the KSU player lobbed a rather lazy pass to the frontcourt corner near the scorers table. I really thought Colvin was going to pick it off. As the ball was in flight - the KSU bench called a timeout and one of the officials closer to the baseline granted it.

I didn't even consider it all that bang/bang. And it was a fairly lengthy pass. Couldn't believe that official granted the TO.

hard as it is too believe officials are sometimes hard of hearing as they get in the habit of ignoring the crowd / coaches / other distractions. That's why you sometimes see a coach actually run out on the floor and grab one of them to request a TO.

and sometimes teams have plays called "side-out" or "line-out" or some other crazy thing that looks exactly like "time-out" when you read someone lips - so they try to verify who is requesting and that they are actually requesting it.

 

[GeronimusClone]

I think the whole "blame the refs" excuse is getting very old. Fact of the matter is we were not the better team. Good teams win no matter who the refs are.

Didn't see anyone make this contention.

 

[DaddyMac]

hard as it is too believe officials are sometimes hard of hearing as they get in the habit of ignoring the crowd / coaches / other distractions. That's why you sometimes see a coach actually run out on the floor and grab one of them to request a TO.

and sometimes teams have plays called "side-out" or "line-out" or some other crazy thing that looks exactly like "time-out" when you read someone lips - so they try to verify who is requesting and that they are actually requesting it.

That crossed my mind as well. The official was right there however. Not like he came from across the court seeing the bench calling a TO. There is any number of excuses or reasons. Most probably legit. Just given the "look" of the action - my guess is he instinctively granted the TO without realizing the situation of the possession.

Oh well, stuff happens. Could've been a rather in-opportune time though.

 

[cyclonecountry]

Because they are trying to prepare these guys for the NBA, and in the NBA they do not call traveling at all

 

[clones_jer]

Because they are trying to prepare these guys for the NBA, and in the NBA they do not call traveling at all

snap.:dull:

 

[wonkadog]

That crossed my mind as well. The official was right there however. Not like he came from across the court seeing the bench calling a TO. There is any number of excuses or reasons. Most probably legit. Just given the "look" of the action - my guess is he instinctively granted the TO without realizing the situation of the possession.

Oh well, stuff happens. Could've been a rather in-opportune time though.

This type of thing usually happens when a coach calls a timeout in an official's ear and then, like stated earlier, the ref has to actually look over at the coach to make sure it was the coach calling the timeout and not some fan being stupid. This causes the actual whistle to stop play to come a little late which makes it look like the ref granted a timeout while there was no player in possession (when in actuality the timeout was granted when the coach called it, there was just some "follow-up" that had to happen to make it official). I'm guessing this is what happened Saturday.

 

[wonkadog]

Thanks for the information Brent.

I think you also have to look at games against unranked opponents. ISU is a team that doesn't foul a lot no matter who they're playing. They don't play an aggressive style of basketball. They don't fight for offensive rebounds and they don't pressure the ball handler to force turnovers. Those are two areas that generate a lot of fouls. ISU should generally have fewer fouls than any of their opponents. The problem is officials are going to try to balance out foul totals to make it look like there wasn't any favoritism shown. This hurts ISU greatly when they play aggressive teams. Most ranked teams play an aggressive style of ball. Despite ISU ending up with fewer fouls, ranked teams will have an advantage because they'll be able to get more second chance points and points off turnovers. Those are two areas that ISU will always lose in when playing aggressive teams.

Exactly. This is one of the main things wrong with college officials. They are told to "even up" the fouls because it makes it hard to complain to the league commissioner afterwards. As stated, this screws over teams who try to play clean and actually helps those who naturally foul quite a bit.

I can't believe how many refs even in JH/HS have tried to do this in games I officiate. I never care who has what number of fouls, it's not like I purposefully am passing on things to call. If your team is dumb enough to be hacking all game then that's your problem...I have yet to see in the rules book where both teams are supposed to magically have the same # of fouls called on them.

 

[khaal53]

Thanks for the information Brent.

I think you also have to look at games against unranked opponents. ISU is a team that doesn't foul a lot no matter who they're playing. They don't play an aggressive style of basketball. They don't fight for offensive rebounds and they don't pressure the ball handler to force turnovers. Those are two areas that generate a lot of fouls. ISU should generally have fewer fouls than any of their opponents. The problem is officials are going to try to balance out foul totals to make it look like there wasn't any favoritism shown. This hurts ISU greatly when they play aggressive teams. Most ranked teams play an aggressive style of ball. Despite ISU ending up with fewer fouls, ranked teams will have an advantage because they'll be able to get more second chance points and points off turnovers. Those are two areas that ISU will always lose in when playing aggressive teams.

Exactly. This is one of the main things wrong with college officials. They are told to "even up" the fouls because it makes it hard to complain to the league commissioner afterwards. As stated, this screws over teams who try to play clean and actually helps those who naturally foul quite a bit.

I can't believe how many refs even in JH/HS have tried to do this in games I officiate. I never care who has what number of fouls, it's not like I purposefully am passing on things to call. If your team is dumb enough to be hacking all game then that's your problem...I have yet to see in the rules book where both teams are supposed to magically have the same # of fouls called on them.

Agreed. When I was coaching there was an instance where the opposing coach was complaining about the disproportionate number of fouls called. The ref's response? "Quit fouling".

 

[mike4cy]

I think the whole "blame the refs" excuse is getting very old. Fact of the matter is we were not the better team. Good teams win no matter who the refs are.

Hence the OP saying that he is not making excuses for losing, he was pointing out that the refs were pretty terrible....and they were.

 

[IcSyU]

Oh, and for the third time in my life, I can remember seeing a ******* double foul called. All 3 against Iowa State now. Officials that call that are complete morons.

 

[khaal53]

Oh, and for the third time in my life, I can remember seeing a ******* double foul called. All 3 against Iowa State now. Officials that call that are complete morons.

The double foul itself isn't all that uncommon. The blarge is. The one on Saturday was weak because it wasn't a simultaneous deal it was Gilstrap reacting and the ref not calling the first foul. I just hate when the double foul is used as a cop-out.