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Pre-fall depth chart

You said they were back from a bad linbacking group. They aren't back.

They actually are ahead of the players you were knocking which I agree that group didn't perform well.

The point is our starters from last year are running at 2. You must have missed that in your analysis.


None of them "played at a high level"

I don't like bad mouthing our own guys so I'll stop.[/QUOTE]
 
I don't give a crap about proven returning players. I care about having good players.

I don't care if they are returning or not. The jury is out on the new guys. I've seen them on the field in the spring game once.

I didn't need a depth chart to tell me who of those newcomers looked good.

We will see how they do but you claiming they won't be good or that we have no depth because they are new is just as ridiculous as saying the opposite.

CloneIce said:
That is not true. Numbers do not equal depth. We have one position group with 0 proven returning players - LB. I would say the same for DT as well.
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CloneIce said:
That is not true. Numbers do not equal depth. We have one position group with 0 proven returning players - LB. I would say the same for DT as well.
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We have THREE guys coming off the bench with starting experience....Knott, Mills and Seeley. When was the last time that occurred at ISU? While Seeley's play was poor, he was young and is likely to attain serviceability at least...Mills and Knott have both, at times, played decently. My argument is not that these guys are awesome...or that they are even "good", just that they are experienced and serviceable...and, more importantly, have clearly been beaten out because 3 other guys demonstrated a good deal more ability/talent.

So yes, that indicates that the talent level in the starting 3 is improved AND that we still have the 3 backup kids with starting experience. If we're a little lucky, that equates to a linebacker corps that is decent...serviceable. We're not advocating that they'll be the 2nd coming of Klein/Knott...just that they won't be a black hole of poor play as they mostly were last season. Improvement in the DL alone will make the LB's look much better...add in this depth and talent upgrade and they can be functional as a group.

Harris is the key to the position group...he must stay healthy and he must play well. From what I've heard internally, he is capable of this...and Jones is also something of a playmaker. Peters may be a bit of an unknown, but having beaten out Knott one would have to assume he's a better player. As a group, there is hope...that's all I'm saying.
 
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D UP Clones said:
You said they were back from a bad linbacking group. They aren't back.

They actually are ahead of the players you were knocking which I agree that group didn't perform well.

The point is our starters from last year are running at 2. You must have missed that in your analysis.



None of them "played at a high level"

I don't like bad mouthing our own guys so I'll stop.
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[/QUOTE]

We don't return a quality starter at linebacker. Unless L Knott is expected to be healthy for the season. I would probably include him.

I like what I've heard of Harris and Jones. Not saying they won't be good.
 
CloneIce said:
Yeah, very glad to see someone overtake Knott/Mills at WLB and especially Seely at MLB. We need significant improvement at both those positions; hopefully the new guys who took the #1 spots are a major upgrade.
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I believe the improved D line will result in improved linebacker play. Just my opinion, but I prefer to have a little hope instead of just constant pessimism.



(Not saying YOU are always negative, more speaking to the vocal majority of the board in general)
 
D-line was thin last year and by the end of the games would get manhandled. I think we have improved both talent and depth wise there and that should help the linebackers out. I think the D is decently improved this year (not that hard when it was terrible last year). If the offense takes a good step forward as well then I say this year should at least be much easier to watch. That's about as optimistic as I will get until I see what happens against UNI.
 
Mesaclone1 said:
Its not counter to the quote, just counter to your highly subjective perception. Which, quite honestly, is the point of the quote...which evidently went right over your head. Of course, that's an opinion as is most everything on this board.
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The exact response I expected from you, damn near to the word. The same thing, time and time again. You blow sunshine like crazy and sell it as fact, you get called out on it, you immediately go after the persons intelligence as if that person can't see right through your insecurity filled garbage.

You are right there with death and taxes.
 
D UP Clones said:
I don't give a crap about proven returning players. I care about having good players.

I don't care if they are returning or not. The jury is out on the new guys. I've seen them on the field in the spring game once.

I didn't need a depth chart to tell me who of those newcomers looked good.

We will see how they do but you claiming they won't be good or that we have no depth because they are new is just as ridiculous as saying the opposite.
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No really. When we don't have a single returning LB who has ever played at even an average Big 12 level, we simply don't yet have depth at the position. It's ridiculous to claim we are deep at the position when nobody has ever played at even average Big 12 level.
 
In past years, how closely has the pre-camp depth chart resembled the depth chart when the season actually began? I guess I'm wondering just how seriously we should take this version or if it's just something for the fans and pundits to kick around.
 
Mesaclone1 said:
We have THREE guys coming off the bench with starting experience....Knott, Mills and Seeley. When was the last time that occurred at ISU? While Seeley's play was poor, he was young and is likely to attain serviceability at least...Mills and Knott have both, at times, played decently. My argument is not that these guys are awesome...or that they are even "good", just that they are experienced and serviceable...and, more importantly, have clearly been beaten out because 3 other guys demonstrated a good deal more ability/talent.

So yes, that indicates that the talent level in the starting 3 is improved AND that we still have the 3 backup kids with starting experience. If we're a little lucky, that equates to a linebacker corps that is decent...serviceable. We're not advocating that they'll be the 2nd coming of Klein/Knott...just that they won't be a black hole of poor play as they mostly were last season. Improvement in the DL alone will make the LB's look much better...add in this depth and talent upgrade and they can be functional as a group.

Harris is the key to the position group...he must stay healthy and he must play well. From what I've heard internally, he is capable of this...and Jones is also something of a playmaker. Peters may be a bit of an unknown, but having beaten out Knott one would have to assume he's a better player. As a group, there is hope...that's all I'm saying.
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Two of these guys play the same position. Knott was hurt this spring and may or may not be done (per the coaches during spring ball). Seeley and Mills were very far from being Big 12 LBs last season. So of the 3 "returning starters" you speak of, two are at the same position (and one of those is battling major injury issues) and the other did not play well enough last year to be a reliable backup.

The 3 starters have never started a game in the Big 12. I guess we just have different definitions of depth. To me depth means multiple players in the two-deep that we have confidence will come in and play well or at least reliably, rather than just having multiple guys in the two-deep who have played in games before.

Agree with you that Harris is the key. Need him to be a stud. Peters beat out Knott because of his hip injury, so while I am hopeful he will be better, its way too early to assume he is just plain better. Agree there is hope - disagree there is any depth at all at the position.
 
jbindm said:
In past years, how closely has the pre-camp depth chart resembled the depth chart when the season actually began? I guess I'm wondering just how seriously we should take this version or if it's just something for the fans and pundits to kick around.
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It is usually very close. This year I would expect to see more movement than usual though.
 
Our LB's would have looked better if Irving and Coe didn't get kicked off the team. Knott and Klein wouldn't have looked as good with last years DL either. Actually if it was them of their sophomore years, they would be getting ripped too.
 
RustShack said:
Our LB's would have looked better if Irving and Coe didn't get kicked off the team. Knott and Klein wouldn't have looked as good with last years DL either.
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They would have looked better. They still would not have looked good. Did you ever focus on individual linebackers on specific plays? Lots of terrible angles and reads, as well as being physically dominated by blockers. Need significant improvement at the position to have an even OK defense this year. Hopefully Harris and Jones will be difference makers coming in.
 
Here's what you will get with Levi, 1) smart player who knows the defense and where he should be, 2) will play fast and bring the wood despite not being the biggest guy and 3) will ALWAYS be going at full speed.

I'll take those 3 things everyday of the week.
 
Knott and Klein made a lot of mistakes at first too, they were just masked by a decent DL. They had a little more time to react, last years LB's had no time to react. New players in any scheme don't fully know the system yet and can't just react without thinking.
 
isufbcurt said:
Here's what you will get with Levi, 1) smart player who knows the defense and where he should be, 2) will play fast and bring the wood despite not being the biggest guy and 3) will ALWAYS be going at full speed.

I'll take those 3 things everyday of the week.
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Agreed. Forgive the cliché, but if a player is going to make a mistake I want him to make it going 100 mph instead of hesitating and reacting too late.
 
CloneIce said:
They would have looked better. They still would not have looked good. Did you ever focus on individual linebackers on specific plays? Lots of terrible angles and reads, as well as being physically dominated by blockers. Need significant improvement at the position to have an even OK defense this year. Hopefully Harris and Jones will be difference makers coming in.
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That is usually inexperience. To many people on this board don't think players can make improvement from year to year. Their first impression is their only impression and that's quite sad.
 
jbindm said:
Agreed. Forgive the cliché, but if a player is going to make a mistake I want him to make it going 100 mph instead of hesitating and reacting too late.
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Yep. Levi seems like the kind of guy who plays every play like it's his last. Eats every meal like it's his last, everything that guy does, he does it to the fullest, to the best of his ability. If we can't recruit the best players, this kind of attitude is a good quality to have.

Imagine if some of our other players who are better sized and more athletic than Peters had this attitude.
 
CYphyllis said:
The exact response I expected from you, damn near to the word. The same thing, time and time again. You blow sunshine like crazy and sell it as fact, you get called out on it, you immediately go after the persons intelligence as if that person can't see right through your insecurity filled garbage.

You are right there with death and taxes.
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You complete me.
 
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