UC has potential but the enrollment doesn't translate to support at a commuter school like it does at a more residential campus. Fewer % on campus, fewer % graduating = less likely to be donors/fans/ticket holders.
***OFFICIAL BIG 12 EXPANSION THREAD 2.0***
- Thread starter Boxerdaddy
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UC has potential but the enrollment doesn't translate to support at a commuter school like it does at a more residential campus. Fewer % on campus, fewer % graduating = less likely to be donors/fans/ticket holders.
Good thing BU is building the new one based on what we already fill. It's long overdue.
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Adding markets has one benefit to us- tv windows.
When CU and MU left we got less priority for regional coverage maps in St Louis and Denver. Adding a school in the right area could give us some benefit there but for the most part I agree about your brand >>>>> market take.
I don't think the term "commuter campus" is relevant when a school like Cincinnati has 40K students!
Only 18k of them are full time undergrads and 21k including the part timers. Post-grad students tend to not be invested in athletics either due to disinterest or already being loyal to their undergrad school's program. That thins the herd along with a 59% 6 year grad rate and a lower than B12 standard % of freshmen on campus.
It's simply different.
Adding WV gave us a huge pull on the east coast though. There are a ton of people that went to or follow WVU that got the heck out of that state. They pull in a ton of TVs. I think adding another school near them would help our presence in the rust belt/atlantic. Ohio isn't too shabby of a recruiting ground either if Cincy is an option. BTW, I've seen a lot more Cincy shirts/hats here in Raleigh-Durham than I have any other Big 12 school (other than WVU). I think their fan base is bigger than you think.
Denver would be nice to have, but I don't know if Colorado State is worth it, or if it would even bring the Denver market. If going with a lower tier team is the plan, I say getting Tulane would be a much better option. It would get the Big 12 in the New Orleans market, open up Louisiana and Alabama for recruiting, and is a team with a new stadium in the works... not to mention it is the best academic option out there for the Big 12 (an AAU school).
I think the Florida schools are the best long term play other than BYU. UC I am not convinced on from a recruiting perspective as the B1G has that state on lockdown. With the Florida schools you have two schools in the middle of a state that exports as many 3 star or better recruits than almost anyone. It would help WVU & ISU who already recruit there a lot.
Also I am not convinced that Cincy would flip any tv windows our way. They'd probably get us the games in Cincinnati & Dayton but the rest of the state would be B1G all the way.
The Florida schools would help us as their home DMA's are larger, would be fighting the ACC for tv windows instead of the almost unbeatable B1G population, and has a track record of doing so.
View attachment 20211
That's a map where USF-UConn stole the tv window from Clemson's game. They took the entire state of Florida away from the ACC's broadcast.
Even when USF or UCF aren't playing they can deliver the regional market to their league.
![URL]](http://[URL="http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/psu/blog/Oct.%2029%20ILL%20at%20PSU.jpg"]http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/psu/blog/Oct.%2029%20ILL%20at%20PSU.jpg[/URL])
All 3 of UC, UCF, and USF have similar budgets. Might as well take the largest upside which I see in the FL twins. UCF has 40k full time undergrads and has a high% on campus and a high % graduating. I am more inclined to think they will translate to support.
I think the Florida schools are the best long term play other than BYU. UC I am not convinced on from a recruiting perspective as the B1G has that state on lockdown. With the Florida schools you have two schools in the middle of a state that exports as many 3 star or better recruits than almost anyone. It would help WVU & ISU who already recruit there a lot.
Also I am not convinced that Cincy would flip any tv windows our way. They'd probably get us the games in Cincinnati & Dayton but the rest of the state would be B1G all the way.
The Florida schools would help us as their home DMA's are larger, would be fighting the ACC for tv windows instead of the almost unbeatable B1G population, and has a track record of doing so.
View attachment 20211
That's a map where USF-UConn stole the tv window from Clemson's game. They took the entire state of Florida away from the ACC's broadcast.
Even when USF or UCF aren't playing they can deliver the regional market to their league.
All 3 of UC, UCF, and USF have similar budgets. Might as well take the largest upside which I see in the FL twins. UCF has 40k full time undergrads and has a high% on campus and a high % graduating. I am more inclined to think they will translate to support.
Off topic, but I love that Minnesota got bumped by NU-UT in their own state...
SEC continues to punk the rest of college football. 13-1 vote to stay at 8 game schedule. Their teams get to play average schedules with a late bye week and a late 'everyone play FCS week' while Big 12 and Pac 12 teams brutalize each other. Of course the media will go on and on and on about the difficult SEC schedule even when every computer shows most Big 12 and Pac 12 schedules to be stronger.
Yeah, I don't see the relevance of your comments to mine. I think the Big 12 is better off with Baylor than Cincy. My last post should have made that clear.
Cincy could be a lot more valuable school than they are, but there's a reason they're in the "No One Knows What This Conference's Actual Name Is" League.
I'm not convinced that Colorado delivers the Denver market to the Pac 12, let alone CSU delivering it to any other league.
Although I would kill for a good reason to drive out to FoCo and drink beer every other fall.
Dont get me wrong, Im not trying to make an argument for having Cincy in the conference over Baylor. Id take Bayloe every time just because they are in Texas. Im fine with what the Big 12 has right now. But Baylor, just like ISU, wouldn't be missed if they were no longer in the Big 12. Cincy and Louisville really bring nothing. My comments were more geared towards the people trying to make arguments for Cincy and Louisville over WVU and TCU. WVU and TCU were the right moves all things considered.
There are some big financial issues with CSU. They raise little money other than through subsidies or league payouts. That really limits how well you could expect them to financially support their programs compared to eastern options. Their football budget is smaller than Tulane, Rice, or Tulsa.
Between that and the questionable ability to matter in Denver... I say move on.
The relevance was the "I think Cincy has a lot of potential (large public school in a populous football crazy state that only has one other legit school) if they were part of a legitimate league," line. My point is that when looking at a commuter school it's not the same as evaluating a four year residential university with the same enrollment as the likelihood of support is so much smaller.
I think the Florida schools are the best long term play other than BYU. UC I am not convinced on from a recruiting perspective as the B1G has that state on lockdown. With the Florida schools you have two schools in the middle of a state that exports as many 3 star or better recruits than almost anyone. It would help WVU & ISU who already recruit there a lot.
Also I am not convinced that Cincy would flip any tv windows our way. They'd probably get us the games in Cincinnati & Dayton but the rest of the state would be B1G all the way.
The Florida schools would help us as their home DMA's are larger, would be fighting the ACC for tv windows instead of the almost unbeatable B1G population, and has a track record of doing so.
View attachment 20211
That's a map where USF-UConn stole the tv window from Clemson's game. They took the entire state of Florida away from the ACC's broadcast.
Even when USF or UCF aren't playing they can deliver the regional market to their league.
![URL]](http://[URL]http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/psu/blog/Oct.%2029%20ILL%20at%20PSU.jpg[/URL])
All 3 of UC, UCF, and USF have similar budgets. Might as well take the largest upside which I see in the FL twins. UCF has 40k full time undergrads and has a high% on campus and a high % graduating. I am more inclined to think they will translate to support.
The reasons for not wanting Cincinnati in the B12 also apply to USF and UCF. All 3 are commuter schools with mostly disinterested fan/alumni bases.
The difference I see with UCF is these two numbers:
% of Freshmen living on campus: 70%. Not quite the 84% the B12 averages but when applied to 6k+ freshmen it ends up with a total number that beats the Big 12 average by 800 per year. This means 70% of their 40k full time undergrads are likely to form a stronger bond and be likely donors when they get out.
Six year grad %- 63%, very similar to the 67% we as a league average. Higher than what most commuter campuses have and does a decent job of turning the first stat into support.
Add to that the fact their facility upgrades, revenue on par with the other options, budget, and the fact that the money will only grow as that enrollment graduates I see them being the exception.
They may have started as a commuter school but they have been transitioning quickly to a four year campus and should have decent support going forward.
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I always wonder if we went to 12 schools again how would the big 12 split?
if we add 2 Florida schools would it go north schools plus Florida?
i heard Houston wants in, but I wouldn't want them. I don't want to water down Texas with more Texas school.
if we add 2 Florida schools would it go north schools plus Florida?
i heard Houston wants in, but I wouldn't want them. I don't want to water down Texas with more Texas school.
IMO if we cant go back to the old way it would probably make sense to do this:
Each team is part of a group of four, two in each division and they each permarival each other.
Texas Baylor
Tech TCU
OU OSU
KSU KU
ISU WVU
USF UCF
You play your division, 2 permanent rivals, and 2 other teams.
So ISU's schedule would be...
UT, Tech, OU, KSU, USF, UCF, WVU every year with BU/TCU rotating and KU/OSU rotating.
All the Texas teams play each other. WVU and ISU get ample games in Florida. OU & KSU get all their old Big8 foes.
It's not going to be perfect but ISU gets UT, Tech, and OU every year in exchange for seeing KU & OSU less often.
Texas gets:
Tech, OU, ISU, USF, KSU in division
BU & TCU cross rivalry
Rotates either KU or OSU and rotates either WVU or UCF.
Its moot because its not looking likely to happen anytime soon anyways, however, i dont know that it matters all that much. 9 games with 12 conference teams and you only miss 2 teams a year, not a big deal... not like doing 8 games with 14 teams.
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