NBA: *** Official 2015 NBA Playoffs Thread ***
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So a regular game for Lebron is a triple double including 39 points. That's GOAT material.
I think many people, especially Cavs/LeBron fans, were much too quick to dismiss this team's chances. That includes when the team was full strength, when Love went out, and also now without Love and Irving. LeBron is that good and he has flipped the switch the past four seasons. In a way you can kind of throw out his stats (amazing as they ofter are), just watching the guy it's clear that he's the most gifted basketball player I have ever seen and he gets it now in terms of what he needs to do to win on a given night with the given circumstances of his team and who he is up against.
The GOAT conversation is bound to come up now, because even people who aren't active LeBron/Heat/Cavs fans can now rationally see just how dominant the guy is the past 4 years where they may have been completely justified in skepticism before that. Jordan's supporting cast is often overrated. I get why LeBron fans want to act like he was surrounded by the greatest teams ever, but it's just not true. Someone else was talking about 'do you expect LeBron to go for 39-16-11...yeah, I do expect that. They were different players but Jordan's typical ho-hum playoff game was 33.4 points, if his top two offensive teammates went out injured I would definitely expect Jordan to drop 40-45 points nightly. Jordan or LeBron are going to make these other guys into stars regardless of who they are, BJ Armstrong was nothing special as a pro, great college player but just a good 3 point shooter with below average ball handling, passing, and penetrating skills for an NBA pg. Watch as LeBron lifts his own 'no names' up the same way. Jordan did have a few teams that were ridiculously elite defensively, but he rarely had amazing offensive players around him, he made them good offensive players.
Of course LBJ's fg% is going to go down as he looses these other two players, but with players like LBJ and MJ they can still dominate a game even on nights their FG% is not amazing.
In terms of typical playoff game and what to expect...
LBJ: 28.1 points, 6.6 assists, 8.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals, .9 blocks (so yes, expect to flirt with a very high scoring triple double every single playoff game)
MJ: 33.4 points, 5.7 assists, 6.4 rebounds, 2.1 steals, .9 blocks (so yes, a 33 or 34 point game is just typical average ho-hum stuff, the special games were more like 40-63 point outings)
The triple doubles guys like Magic and Kidd got weren't scoring around 30 points so often the way LBJ's are. LBJ's averages for this playoff are very close to a triple double while scoring around 30. Nobody playing basketball today will sniff Jordan's playoff scoring. These guys are that good that their 'average' game is mind blowing compared to the rest.
I say at some point with either of these guys though, you can throw the stats out the window in the playoffs, LBJ has reached the level now too where it's just going to be a monumental task to take him down in the playoffs. We still have a long way to go, but MVP Curry isn't looking that different than MVP Rose in '11 so far facing LBJ...and I think both had a strong case to get regular season MVPs...just this is the playoffs and if you're in the goat discussion you're not going down easy in the playoffs.
I can't wait to see how it plays out, but even with the very significant injuries to the #2 and #3 option, the Cavs are not going to be an easy out...and GS better get a split in Cleveland or welcome to the Chicago Bulls recent past where you have a nice regular season and get bounced by James. Blatt and LeBron have done a great job getting guys to excel in their roles.
The GOAT conversation is bound to come up now, because even people who aren't active LeBron/Heat/Cavs fans can now rationally see just how dominant the guy is the past 4 years where they may have been completely justified in skepticism before that. Jordan's supporting cast is often overrated. I get why LeBron fans want to act like he was surrounded by the greatest teams ever, but it's just not true. Someone else was talking about 'do you expect LeBron to go for 39-16-11...yeah, I do expect that. They were different players but Jordan's typical ho-hum playoff game was 33.4 points, if his top two offensive teammates went out injured I would definitely expect Jordan to drop 40-45 points nightly. Jordan or LeBron are going to make these other guys into stars regardless of who they are, BJ Armstrong was nothing special as a pro, great college player but just a good 3 point shooter with below average ball handling, passing, and penetrating skills for an NBA pg. Watch as LeBron lifts his own 'no names' up the same way. Jordan did have a few teams that were ridiculously elite defensively, but he rarely had amazing offensive players around him, he made them good offensive players.
Of course LBJ's fg% is going to go down as he looses these other two players, but with players like LBJ and MJ they can still dominate a game even on nights their FG% is not amazing.
In terms of typical playoff game and what to expect...
LBJ: 28.1 points, 6.6 assists, 8.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals, .9 blocks (so yes, expect to flirt with a very high scoring triple double every single playoff game)
MJ: 33.4 points, 5.7 assists, 6.4 rebounds, 2.1 steals, .9 blocks (so yes, a 33 or 34 point game is just typical average ho-hum stuff, the special games were more like 40-63 point outings)
The triple doubles guys like Magic and Kidd got weren't scoring around 30 points so often the way LBJ's are. LBJ's averages for this playoff are very close to a triple double while scoring around 30. Nobody playing basketball today will sniff Jordan's playoff scoring. These guys are that good that their 'average' game is mind blowing compared to the rest.
I say at some point with either of these guys though, you can throw the stats out the window in the playoffs, LBJ has reached the level now too where it's just going to be a monumental task to take him down in the playoffs. We still have a long way to go, but MVP Curry isn't looking that different than MVP Rose in '11 so far facing LBJ...and I think both had a strong case to get regular season MVPs...just this is the playoffs and if you're in the goat discussion you're not going down easy in the playoffs.
I can't wait to see how it plays out, but even with the very significant injuries to the #2 and #3 option, the Cavs are not going to be an easy out...and GS better get a split in Cleveland or welcome to the Chicago Bulls recent past where you have a nice regular season and get bounced by James. Blatt and LeBron have done a great job getting guys to excel in their roles.
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GTO owning Bodeclone. Bodeclone should hang out in Random Thoughts thread for further owning and then analysis.
Here's why I disagree with your assertion that the Bulls without Jordan are overrated. 1993 was the full year of Jordan's retirement. Without Jordan, the Bulls went 55-27, finishing 2 games behind the Hawks and the Knicks for best record in the Eastern Conference. It took 7 games (and a controversial call in game 5) for the Knicks, the Eastern Conference representative in the NBA Finals, to eliminate the Bulls that year. 1994-95 was a struggle until the Bulls returned, but that was because the Bulls lost Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, Scott Williams, and John Paxson in the offseason - in other words, much of the original supporting cast.
Compare that to post-LeBron James teams - the 2009-10 Cavs with LeBron went 61-21, best record in the NBA, whereas the 2010-11 Cavs without LeBron went 19-63, worst record in the Eastern Conference. The 2013-14 Heat with LeBron went 54-28, 2nd in the Eastern Conference, and made it to the NBA Finals. The 2014-15 Heat without LeBron went 37-45 and missed the playoffs.
I'm sorry - Michael Jordan based on results had a significantly stronger supporting cast and LeBron James has been a much more critical to the success of the team for which he was playing.
First of all, the point of that part of my post was that I think if Pippen or the third best player like Horace Grant or Rodman had gone down in some a finals...I think Jordan still wins at least a title or two in one of those 6 title years because he was that good he just wasn't going to be denied sometimes. For some reason LeBron's fans were counting him out this year even before Love got hurt, I still don't count him out even with Love and Irving hurt...if you count him out then you know for a fact he's not goat material.
But if you want to get into the argument...LeBron's supporting cast the past five seasons has definitely been as good as Jordan's six title years. Jordan had a better defensive cast, LeBron has had a better offensive supporting cast. MJ's teams were probably also better the 2-3 years before his titles started. So basically I'd say MJ's final 8-9 seasons were comparable rosters to LBJ's past 5...but the injuries to Love and Irving obviously put a big asterisk on that because while this year's Cavs roster started out loaded it has clearly become LBJ + role players now.
I love Scottie Pippen as a player, he was kind of a poor man's LeBron James for the fans too young to have really seen him. He is an all time great defender and the definition of well rounded (hence the poor man's LBJ), but he was never a truly dominant offensive player the way Wade has been most of his career and even Kevin Love can be at times. A lot of LeBron fans want to create this fantasy where Jordan played on a stacked team throw out that top 50 list with Pippen...well if they did that again about an even amount would probably have Pippen and Wade flip flopped. The year MJ stepped away they benefitted that Pippen was in his prime and Phil stayed. Phil is actually the biggest advantage MJ had his title years compared to LBJ in Miami.
If you rank all the supporting players offensively you have Wade as clear #1, then a good argument between Love, Bosh, and Pippen for #2 with Irving probably just behind those four players then there's a big drop off before any other Bulls dynasty players can be considered as good as those guys offensively.
When you compare them defensively it's just as clear the Bulls supporting players were better, you have Pippen and Rodman as the biggest standouts, then Harper, Wade, Grant and maybe now Shumpert as the other standouts.
The single best supporting unit may have been Pippen-Rodman-Harper on defense along with MJ...but that team didn't have the offensive weapons LeBron's teams had the past 5 years. (again asterisk for the injuries this post season) Any team with LBJ or MJ is going to have 3 point shooters that get hot, that doesn't make them great supporting casts alone.
LeBron may pull this out short handed, or he may not. But don't doubt that he's not good enough to have a shot and then talk GOAT in the same breath. I think he and Blatt are going about this the right way and maximizing the potential of what they have.
Here are some career stats supporting what I'm talking about. Pippen was a great defender and all around great, but LBJ has been playing with more gifted offensive players these past 5 years. It's not a huge difference that LBJ fans are painting with these fantasy scenarios of the Bulls being an All star team. No Bulls player outside of Pippen can compare to any of these offensive #s.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html
It sucks the Cavs got devastated by injuries but LBJ is good enough he still has a solid shot. Outside of Pippen (who might have been LeBron's 2nd or 3rd best teammate offensively these past 5 seasons) the Bulls were basically all role players on offense. I'm predicting a split here, but it won't shock me if they go up 3-1 either.
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There was a statistical analysis that I won't link now because I'm on my phone. It analyzed the strength of finals teams minus their best player. If I'm remembering correctly, Lebrons first trip with the Cavs was second worst since 1990ish. This team was in the bottom 5 before Kyrie got hurt. Even his teams in Miami were near middle of the pack at best. Jordan had several teams near the top and his worst team was middle of the pack.
Some of my numbers were off but the overall message is the same
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/
Yeah there's no question the Bulls second three peat had the best supporting cast. They had a full salary cap without Jordan and then signed him for more than other teams paid their entire roster. With the salary cap rules today you just can't put together a team like that.
Yes, that first finals team minus LeBron could be the worst ever and I wouldn't blink. This team is decimated production wise without Love and Irving but they are making the best out of it.
If you look at the rosters LBJ has started the season with the past five years though, they are all five very good rosters. San Antonio was playing amazingly well last year. The two biggest things LBJ had against him outside his own play the past five seasons are these playoff injuries this year, and that he didn't have a great coach in Miami. Too early to tell on Blatt but I'd hand him coach of the year for the playoffs if it was such a thing.
Are LeBron's Miami teams toward the bottom? No. Would this team be with Love and Irving? No. *Edit, actually looking at the link you posted I'm shocked this year's Cavs team is that low if it includes a fully healthy roster. Bulls teams are where I thought with the second 3peat being awesome and the first 3peat being lower than LBJ's 4 Miami teams.
There's no big discrepancy here outside of LeBron taking a poor-outside-of-him Cleveland team to the finals way ahead of schedule in '07 and then the freak injuries in this playoffs. People want to invent it, but it's not there.
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Horace Grant or Rodman? Maybe. Pippen? No. Pippen is the reason why Jordan wasn't triple teamed every time he had the ball like LeBron James currently sees - you put that much focus on Jordan and Pippen would have killed you. Granted, LeBron had that kind of support in Miami, and they won 2 championships and went to the Finals all four years because of it.
Honestly, I think the litmus test of LeBron James' greatness came in the 2008-09 season where LeBron dragged a cast of nobodies and Mike Brown to the best record in the NBA and the NBA Finals where they got beat down by the San Antonio Spurs, easily the definition of TEAM in the last decade plus.
Do I think Jordan could have done the same thing if he were in LeBron's position? Yes, I think he could. The point is pre-Pippen Jordan couldn't (yeah, he was still developing as a player at that point), and after Pippen he never had to.
I think both of us actually agree - LeBron James is one of the greatest ever to play the game. I actually think it's unfair to compare LeBron to Jordan because LeBron is actually more of a hybrid of Jordan and Magic Johnson. Whereas Jordan would take insane shots (and make them) even with teammates with wide open looks, LeBron will pass the ball off to the teammate with the better look. That's better team basketball. Another thing, Jordan is considered to be an adequate, if not good, defensive player - but there is no way he could nor would be guarding LeBron 1-on-1, because he would be eaten alive.
Fine, perhaps I do slightly overrate Jordan's supporting cast. That's mostly because LeBron haters, Bulls fans, and especially Chicagoans act like Jordan didn't even have teammates, even Pippen, during the 6 championships, when Jordan had a supporting cast that LeBron James could only dream about (and actually had in Miami). That's why I always bring up the supporting cast and the 1993-94 season.
Pippen also carried a huge defensive load, plus Rodman and Harper were both terrific defenders, the Bulls would have been able to throw Pippen on Tony Parker in crunch time where as LeBron had to do it all. The Bulls second three peat teams were a complete team without Jordan, different salary cap rules back then. Miami had really good supporting cast the first three years, their 2014 supporting cast was 52nd/60 teams on that 538 link which is about right, they were starting Rashard Lewis, who was washed up in 2012, in the Finals that year and had no wing depth at all.
This series is throwing a real wrench in the idea that NBA officials get marching orders in order to make the league $$$.
A Cavs/LeBron championship here sells a ton of jersey's worldwide while getting casual fans to watch and buy tickets while Golden State winning probably barely moves the cash needle for them. Just 2.25 games in but Cavs fans have a bit of a legit gripe, which is weird for a team with the world's best and most marketable player.
A Cavs/LeBron championship here sells a ton of jersey's worldwide while getting casual fans to watch and buy tickets while Golden State winning probably barely moves the cash needle for them. Just 2.25 games in but Cavs fans have a bit of a legit gripe, which is weird for a team with the world's best and most marketable player.
I agree with this. If you look at the 12 Finals teams both players have had, the last 3 Bulls teams are the best overall teams clearly. But Jordan's first 3 titles, those teams weren't any more talented than LeBron's Miami teams, probably less talented (but maybe better coached). Obviously LBJ's two Cleveland finals are last and you don't need advanced stats to see that.
The NBA has nothing to lose giving LeBron the benefit of the doubt on every call tonight, especially after him not getting a big call late last game. We shall see..
