Looking to next year

[NEICyFan]

Again - agree on the recruiting - to get back to being a consistent top 10 program (all we've been consistent at since nichols/ gibbons era) we need to do a better job here - think Buf or Judoka stated that this has been a work in progress for Jackson to figure out
Beard - Injured this year, cant say we know what his development was
Goettl - Agree disappointment
Bauer - How could you say a RFR hasn't developed? Again isn't there injury here as well, again your expectation is every wrestler is an AA as RFR?
Finch - Not d1 talent - otherwise he'd be at a d1 school right now NAIA champ would prob put him at ~ where he was at ISU ranked near 20th
Trent Weatherman - injured out for career
Cozart - see Finch

Has M. Moreno developed? Has Gadson? Not sure if you watched ISU wrestling during the year, i know you spend significant time trolling our boards in between going to UNI / Iowa matches did you see Quean develop?

While we are at it - give me some examples of great development of ISU wrestlers in the past something we can specifically use as an example of what your expecting Jackson to do.

Beard never came around the way it was expected, even if you look at just to his junior year.
The jury is still out on Bauer but he came in with tremendous accolades and was not good this year.
Finch was a big time recruit out of HS. Top ranked by several services and double champion at Fargo. He has the skills to compete at D1 and has shown it over the years. To say he's "not a d1 talent" is head scratching. He was a huge coup recruiting wise for KJ.
Weatherman wasn't developing as planned before his issues set in.
Cozart is either a recruiting miss or a development miss, not unlike Finch.

Why are you asking me about the guys who have clearly developed? That's a classic straw man argument. It has never been claimed that no one has developed under KJ. Especially not by me. The frustration has been that there aren't enough guys and our performance speaks to this.

FWIW, I posted many times this season that I've enjoyed seeing Smith come around. He has a long way to go but I believe I've even used the term "feather in the cap" of the coaching staff with what they've done with him, over the course of this season.

 

[NEICyFan]

While we are at it - give me some examples of great development of ISU wrestlers in the past something we can specifically use as an example of what your expecting Jackson to do.

I expect good to great recruiting/development out of KJ. Just like I did out of Douglas, Cael and Gibbons. I also expect it out of our other coaches, but moreso in wrestling where we have inherent advantages that we don't have in hoops and football.

So yeah...look at any of our teams that finished in the top 5 or 6 at the NCAAs over the past 30-40 years for your answer. I expect that kind of performance more years than not. I don't think that's too much to expect from the ISU wrestling program.

 

[cloneswillwin]

Beard never came around the way it was expected, even if you look at just to his junior year.
The jury is still out on Bauer but he came in with tremendous accolades and was not good this year.
Finch was a big time recruit out of HS. Top ranked by several services and double champion at Fargo. He has the skills to compete at D1 and has shown it over the years. To say he's "not a d1 talent" is head scratching. He was a huge coup recruiting wise for KJ.
Weatherman wasn't developing as planned before his issues set in.
Cozart is either a recruiting miss or a development miss, not unlike Finch.

Why are you asking me about the guys who have clearly developed? That's a classic straw man argument. It has never been claimed that no one has developed under KJ. Especially not by me. The frustration has been that there aren't enough guys and our performance speaks to this.

FWIW, I posted many times this season that I've enjoyed seeing Smith come around. He has a long way to go but I believe I've even used the term "feather in the cap" of the coaching staff with what they've done with him, over the course of this season.

-Disagree with both Finch and Cozart - Neither ended up being D1 talent, hence why they are not at a D1 program this year - don't you think that if they could have been an AA at D1 level with another coach another coach would of picked them up on their team?
-Bauer by the way was the #112 recruit in the country - that is not tremendous accolades
-Weatherman had 1 year with Jackson before he was injured - so not sure what your talking about here

As you admit Jackson has developed talent, as to not enough that is open for debate. Like i put in my longer post for us to be where you think we should be Jackson would of had no margin for error - every recruit had to pan out and every low recruit had to magically develop into an AA - Can you show another program or coach that has done this?

Yeah, next year is a big one guessing we'll move from being just outside the top 10 to just inside the top 10 and you'll still be trolling ISU wrestling boards.

 

[Judoka]

Man, you must be real mad about your Panthers and Hawks crapping the bed at NCAAs to spend your whole day on here trolling.

Every Iowa State wrestler wrestled at or above their seed this weekend. While Iowa was expecting to have a shot to win it and ended up out of the conversation entirely. UNI completely faded away and ended up below ISU in the team score and well out of the top 10. And both Iowa and UNI were on peak years of their recruiting cycles, while ISU hasn't reached their peak yet.

In the gameday thread you had like three posts, all negative. And then the day after we have a damn good tournament you start a thread like this. How pathetic are you?

 

[NEICyFan]

Man, you must be real mad about your Panthers and Hawks crapping the bed at NCAAs to spend you're whole day on here trolling.

Every Iowa State wrestler wrestled at or above their seed this weekend. While Iowa was expecting to have a shot to win it and ended up out of the conversation entirely. UNI completely faded away and ended up below ISU in the team score and well out of the top 10. And both Iowa and UNI were on peak years of their recruiting cycles, while ISU hasn't reached their peak yet.

In the gameday thread you had like three posts, all negative. And then the day after we have a damn good tournament you start a thread like this. How pathetic are you?

I'm just glad you're reading my posts again. It's about time. When you took your ball and went home after I proved you wrong about UNI being better supported than Iowa I was disappointed.

I would LOVE to "crap the bed" like Iowa did. They almost doubled our points, return more points than we do, more point scorers than we do, more AAs than we do, and they have 3 studs waiting in the wings to take over for their seniors. They also didn't drop in the team standings from 2013.

Hopefully someday we can be as disappointed with a performance like that as Iowa fans are with their performance. It will mean we are finally back where we belong.

 

[cloneswillwin]

I expect good to great recruiting/development out of KJ. Just like I did out of Douglas, Cael and Gibbons. I also expect it out of our other coaches, but moreso in wrestling where we have inherent advantages that we don't have in hoops and football.

So yeah...look at any of our teams that finished in the top 5 or 6 at the NCAAs over the past 30-40 years for your answer. I expect that kind of performance more years than not. I don't think that's too much to expect from the ISU wrestling program.

Again specifics my man - Believe me I am a huge Cyclone Wrestling fan and have been going to the meets for 30 years.

I can tell you every argument you've made about development i can say I was more disappointed with Cael and Douglass than I am with Jackson. Cael and Bobby got top recuriting classes year in and year out we consistently had under performance out of those kids.

While we are at it again -you seem to struggle with specifics for ISU. Don't just point out we don't finish as well as you'd like - no S**t we've covered that. Name some great development in our past that Jackson should aspire to be like, ya know something that I can't refute by saying M Mereno or K Gadson.

I'll agree I wish Jackson could recruit like Cael and Douglass did - With Jackson actually coaching the kids that those guys brought in I think we'd have some some titles during their 17 year run with out one that we like to remember as our "great years of always competing for national championships"

 

[NEICyFan]

-Disagree with both Finch and Cozart - Neither ended up being D1 talent, hence why they are not at a D1 program this year - don't you think that if they could have been an AA at D1 level with another coach another coach would of picked them up on their team?
-Bauer by the way was the #112 recruit in the country - that is not tremendous accolades
-Weatherman had 1 year with Jackson before he was injured - so not sure what your talking about here

As you admit Jackson has developed talent, as to not enough that is open for debate. Like i put in my longer post for us to be where you think we should be Jackson would of had no margin for error - every recruit had to pan out and every low recruit had to magically develop into an AA - Can you show another program or coach that has done this?

Yeah, next year is a big one guessing we'll move from being just outside the top 10 to just inside the top 10 and you'll still be trolling ISU wrestling boards.

How can you say in one breath that at ISU Finch was in the top 20 in D1 and in the next breath say he's not D1? How can you say he doesn't have D1 talent when he's proven it by both qualifying for the NCAA tournament and winning a match? There are kids in D2, D3, JC and NAIA with D1 talent. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term. Finch went 18-10 as a frosh and got a pin at the NCAA tournament. How is that "not D1"? He didn't even qualify the next year. That's going backwards developmentally. He's good enough to wrestle D1. He proved it.

Your comment: "As you admit Jackson has developed talent, as to not enough that is open for debate. Like i put in my longer post for us to be where you think we should be Jackson would of had no margin for error - every recruit had to pan out and every low recruit had to magically develop into an AA - Can you show another program or coach that has done this?"

That is patently false. Not everyone has to pan out. Not everyone will pan out nor is it expected. It would have only taken a couple of more AAs to move well into the top 10 in the country each of the past two seasons.

 

[cloneswillwin]

How can you say in one breath that at ISU Finch was in the top 20 in D1 and in the next breath say he's not D1? How can you say he doesn't have D1 talent when he's proven it by both qualifying for the NCAA tournament and winning a match? There are kids in D2, D3, JC and NAIA with D1 talent. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term. Finch went 18-10 as a frosh and got a pin at the NCAA tournament. How is that "not D1"? He didn't even qualify the next year. That's going backwards developmentally. He's good enough to wrestle D1. He proved it.

Your comment: "As you admit Jackson has developed talent, as to not enough that is open for debate. Like i put in my longer post for us to be where you think we should be Jackson would of had no margin for error - every recruit had to pan out and every low recruit had to magically develop into an AA - Can you show another program or coach that has done this?"

That is patently false. Not everyone has to pan out. Not everyone will pan out nor is it expected. It would have only taken a couple of more AAs to move well into the top 10 in the country each of the past two seasons.

Good point Finch was D1 talent, just not the "top" talent, would of never AA at ISU or any other program. How do I know this - he had his chances and again if he could be he would be, many schools out there that would have taken him at the D1 level if they thought they could get an AA candidate but he ended up at NAIA Grandview. Aren't you glad the Coach Jackson replaced a non-top talent wrestler with one that is in Hall?

Good to point out that with just 2 more AA the last couple years ISU would be top 10, nobody knew that before you posted it. Some of our recruits as with all schools didn't pan out, some wrestlers as with all schools didn't develop.

Facts are Jackson hasn't been perfect - to be significantly better than we are right now would have taken damn near perfection. Won't go over every detail because I think I've done that in previous posts, Jackson has done pretty good with the hole that Cael left, but again I'll state it again, excuse time is over. I expect that ISU wrestling will get back to our former self over the next couple years or Jackson has got to go.

 

[ralst024]

How can you say in one breath that at ISU Finch was in the top 20 in D1 and in the next breath say he's not D1? How can you say he doesn't have D1 talent when he's proven it by both qualifying for the NCAA tournament and winning a match? There are kids in D2, D3, JC and NAIA with D1 talent. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term. Finch went 18-10 as a frosh and got a pin at the NCAA tournament. How is that "not D1"? He didn't even qualify the next year. That's going backwards developmentally. He's good enough to wrestle D1. He proved it.

Your comment: "As you admit Jackson has developed talent, as to not enough that is open for debate. Like i put in my longer post for us to be where you think we should be Jackson would of had no margin for error - every recruit had to pan out and every low recruit had to magically develop into an AA - Can you show another program or coach that has done this?"

That is patently false. Not everyone has to pan out. Not everyone will pan out nor is it expected. It would have only taken a couple of more AAs to move well into the top 10 in the country each of the past two seasons.

Finch didn't perform (or develop) at ISU and had to leave ISU not because of his talent but because of other reasons that have nothing to do with coaching. There are some things that are out of a coach's (ours or any other coach's) hands. I'm happy Finch (and Thompson and Cozart) found a home where he (they) can and did succeed athletically and (hopefully) academically. However, to use Finch in this argument is off point.

 

[NEICyFan]

Finch didn't perform (or develop) at ISU and had to leave ISU not because of his talent but because of other reasons that have nothing to do with coaching. There are some things that are out of a coach's (ours or any other coach's) hands. I'm happy Finch (and Thompson and Cozart) found a home where he (they) can and did succeed athletically and (hopefully) academically. However, to use Finch in this argument is off point.

I don't see how it is off point to say that a kid with his accolades was recruited by this staff and didn't come through in the end. Significant resources were poured into the kid (time and $) and it didn't work out.

Would like to hear more opinions on where we need to be next year if anyone cares to offer them. I respect those who said top 12 is good enough even if I disagree with them.

 

[cloneswillwin]

I don't see how it is off point to say that a kid with his accolades was recruited by this staff and didn't come through in the end. Significant resources were poured into the kid (time and $) and it didn't work out.

Would like to hear more opinions on where we need to be next year if anyone cares to offer them. I respect those who said top 12 is good enough even if I disagree with them.

Dude - just went through you posting history - You either have to be a Panther Hawk or the most miserable Cyclone fan ever. You defend the Panter Hawks every chance you get - arguing with Cyclone fans seems to be your past time. I have noticed your negative posts running down ISU wrestling and Football, over and over and over. If Judoka is a rainbows and sunshine fan your a **** and vinegar fan, if you are a Cyclone fan I think you'd be much happier being a Panther or Hawk fan. I for one would say ISU doesn't need your type of fan "support", and if there is any one on here doubting what I'm say please read this guys posting history, 80% reminding us how ISU is not good in wrestling or football, 15% defending Panther Hawks against Cyclone fan comments, 5% saying something good about ISU

Am I doing this right?

Go back and find the Cyclone Fan Poster that said top 12 is good enough, know you struggle with facts unless it's Panther Hawk facts.

 

[howellc33]

I don't think finishing 12th is satisfactory it actually pisses me off..We should be beating up on teams like UNI with no problem. While most times I argue against you as I'm on the "Sunshine and rainbows" side, I would agree that we as a team are under-performing from a traditional standpoint..But your main point basically is saying that you're calling for KJ's job. When I joined the board a couple years ago, there were several of us doing the same thing. Given the situation that Cael left us in, KJ did what he could with what he had and that includes the coaching staff. KJ's regime started out nice with guys like Varner, Zabriskie, Long and Reader. Though they were not his recruits he did however play a part in coaching them up for the remainder of their careers..Gadson, Moreno and Hall are his recruits and they have done well if not overachieved at the national tournament..You talk about guys not panning out or not meeting expectations and that is normal EVERYWHERE. Finch and Cozart were both highly touted and didn't work out, but there are other guys that are starting to figure it out such as the Moreno brothers, Tanner and Lelund Weatherspoon. In other situations guys that were plagued by injuries couldn't contribute as we would have liked such as Beard, Spangler, Sorenson and Trent Weatherman..Injuries are a part of the game so let's say those guys didn't get hurt? We wouldn't have likely finished in the top ten, but probably better than in the 20's or whatever..So that brings us to 2014 where we finish 12th at nationals. Are ANY of us pleased with the placing? Probably not, but we are getting better. Most of us have learned that patience is a virtue and that making this program into a national contender will likely take time. If KJ was on the chopping block that's fine, but who would come to ISU and make us a perennial top 5 team right away?

 

[buf87]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ts20F13hfU

Good video from Michael Moreno