Level the playing field in HS athletics

[mb7299]

Found the topic pretty interesting, its shown over and over the schools with the better socio-economic situations do better in athletics for many reasons. Proper diet, coach-ability, money for camps, often times better home lives ect.
https://www.kcci.com/article/metro-...l-playing-field-for-student-athletes/28142064

 

[cdface]

let's start with this one. it looks real bad.

 

[knowlesjam]

Found the topic pretty interesting, its shown over and over the schools with the better socio-economic situations do better in athletics for many reasons. Proper diet, coach-ability, money for camps, often times better home lives ect.
https://www.kcci.com/article/metro-...l-playing-field-for-student-athletes/28142064

So how far do you go? Illinois has separate leagues for public and parochial schools due to the perceived thinking that church schools can "recruit" students. The same goes for private schools...should they be allowed to compete for state championships with public schools? An interesting example is Creighton Prep in Omaha...very expensive school, but they offer scholarships for academic and economic needs. They also win state championships in at least half the boys sports every year. You also have the wide separation of attendance at the top level...950 students at Columbus High School and 2800 at Central High School.

Not an easy answer...

 

[harimad]

So how far do you go? Illinois has separate leagues for public and parochial schools due to the perceived thinking that church schools can "recruit" students. The same goes for private schools...should they be allowed to compete for state championships with public schools? An interesting example is Creighton Prep in Omaha...very expensive school, but they offer scholarships for academic and economic needs. They also win state championships in at least half the boys sports every year. You also have the wide separation of attendance at the top level...950 students at Columbus High School and 2800 at Central High School.

Not an easy answer...

In Illinois? Are you sure? Last I knew, there was a multiplier applied to the private school's enrollment to bump them up higher in class for state competition. A great example this spring was Marist HS, a private school which recruits athletes. The softball team's entire lineup was D1 commits and was rated Top 10 nationally the entire season. It was a shock when they lost in the state championship game. Regardless, they were like 32-2 regular season, and those two losses were when they went to Arizona for the first weekend of the year.

 

[DeereClone]

In Illinois? Are you sure? Last I knew, there was a multiplier applied to the private school's enrollment to bump them up higher in class for state competition. A great example this spring was Marist HS, a private school which recruits athletes. The softball team's entire lineup was D1 commits and was rated Top 10 nationally the entire season. It was a shock when they lost in the state championship game. Regardless, they were like 32-2 regular season, and those two losses were when they went to Arizona for the first weekend of the year.

I think you are correct on the Illinois rule. I think it’s a good rule as there are definite advantages at a private school that public schools don’t have.

I think it’s hard to draw the line on leveling the playing field with public schools. I get the concept but in reality it’s hard to fairly apply a leveling rule across all schools.

What about extra rural schools that struggle too?

 

[mb7299]

I agree it would be difficult even for areas like Des Moines to level the playing field, rural definitely wont happen. I just find it fascinating how dependent athletics are, especially skill sports with higher socio-economic schools. Its telling that a sport like Volleyball is dominated by schools in NE, E Iowa. Basketball dominates in the smaller classes in the more well to do communities over and over again.

 

[CycloneErik]

I went to a private school that was very good at athletics. We played up because we could. The richest public schools still ended up winning the championships though.

They're not. One link from a set of many:

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/6777581/importance-athlete-background-making-nba



It's been a myth from the beginning of pro sports that they provide an opportunity for poor kids to move up. In reality, it's almost always privileged folks with a very small, dramatic handful of poor kids with enough talent to transcend their situation. In almost every circumstance, your situation will determine how far you can go.

And unlimited funding? What?

 

[Rabbuk]

I went to a private school that was very good at athletics. We played up because we could. The richest public schools still ended up winning the championships though.

Here's my take: public schools have unlimited funding. The only restriction is what the district wants to spend. Private schools have to fundraise for everything. My parents give to my (and their) alma every year though no one has gone there in 20 years. Neither my wife norher parents have ever given to their alma mater. My point is people who select where they go probably have more motivation to see it succeed. Does that translate to athletics? Maybe.

Private school kids shouldn't be punished because their parents have more money, or they're better listeners, or have more time to practice. Life doesn't kick out richer kids, why would athletics?

Kind of unrelated, but if the rich schools win everything why are the majority of NFL and NBA players from poor backgrounds?

Because a majority of the country is poor?

 

[ArgentCy]

Basing everything on a simple count is rather silly. Add a bit of competitive results into the picture. If you suck at a sport for say 3 years in a row you drop down a level. If you are dominating you go up a level. Maximum drop of one level and rise of two levels. You could keep the numbers the same by doing it in pairs (ie one drops someone else has to rise).

So let's pick on a school like Marshaltown. Hard to compete with the large schools in Des Moines. Let's say the football team goes 2-10, 4-8, and 1-11. They might drop down to 3A while a 3A team would take their place.

 

[ArgentCy]

I went to a private school that was very good at athletics. We played up because we could. The richest public schools still ended up winning the championships though.

Here's my take: public schools have unlimited funding. The only restriction is what the district wants to spend. Private schools have to fundraise for everything. My parents give to my (and their) alma every year though no one has gone there in 20 years. Neither my wife norher parents have ever given to their alma mater. My point is people who select where they go probably have more motivation to see it succeed. Does that translate to athletics? Maybe.

Private school kids shouldn't be punished because their parents have more money, or they're better listeners, or have more time to practice. Life doesn't kick out richer kids, why would athletics?

Kind of unrelated, but if the rich schools win everything why are the majority of NFL and NBA players from poor backgrounds?

That's rather easy. Those kids were a diamond in the rough with immense talent. Sports are team sports and it takes a good system to be consistently on top. Good leaders, enough monetary support, and generally good parents.

 

[HandSanitizer]

Here is my take. I think Iowa needs to look at a bunch of things.

1. Why are we the only state in the entire country with two unions running HS sports? If you dig into this it looks bad and its just confusing.

2. I think if you don't want such a discrepancy in school sized classifications, you need to make the classes smaller. Kansas does this pretty well. Arkansas does it well, but probably two small IMO. If we went to 6 classes both boys and girls (using basketball for example as I know this would be adjusted for other sports). 32,32,32,64,64, rest of schools. right now for boys is 48,64,128,rest of state
shorting the classes gives you a lot closer range of similar sized schools. equaling the playing field I guess. This doesn't really help the DSM public schools though.

3. Using a mandatory multiplier. I think Illinois uses x1.5? Get teams like Granview to 2A, Kuemper to 3A, Assumption to 4A etc. We just don't have enough private schools to have a private division. Plus Dowling would just win everything.

4. As far as this thread and DSM Public getting on a leveling playing field. So where would the level field stop? I can think of 16 teams in this division (take the CR, DSM, Waterloo, Davenport, Sioux City public schools? But if we are using socioeconomic factors then what do you do with schools like Fort Dodge, Marshalltown, Ottumwa etc.? They are 4A schools with half the enrollment and probably not much better off socioeconomically.

Then if all those teams leave and play in their own class for State tournaments. What happens to the Bondurants, Carlise's, Ballards etc...Do they slide up and then get stuck playing in the top "athletic" class. That doesn't seem awesome either.

There is always going to be someone upset. So that is why I would like to start with 1 athletic union and redo classifications like I said above.

 

[3GenClone]

Kind of unrelated, but if the rich schools win everything why are the majority of NFL and NBA players from poor backgrounds?

“An analysis shows many of the NBA top draft picks in 2019 have similar educational backgrounds.

Of the 24 first-round draft picks who attended high school in the United States, 16 attended private schools, while only eight attended public schools.

Overall, 45% of the 2019 NBA first- and second-round draft picks went to private schools, versus 35% for public schools.”



http://theconversation.com/for-many...er-high-school-was-critical-to-success-118160

 

[BCClone]

Sounds like the importance (although I knew this) is lost on many. Instead of teamwork, working hard and following leadership, and most importantly having fun doesn’t matter, winning is all that matters.

 

[harimad]

I think you are correct on the Illinois rule. I think it’s a good rule as there are definite advantages at a private school that public schools don’t have.

I think it’s hard to draw the line on leveling the playing field with public schools. I get the concept but in reality it’s hard to fairly apply a leveling rule across all schools.

What about extra rural schools that struggle too?

Illinois splits their competition levels by enrollment. The rural schools with small enrollments are playing against other schools of similar size. That's why I like the multiplier, because at least then the private small enrollment schools aren't going to state and beating up on the rural schools that can't pull the best athletes districts way out of their neighborhood.

I think the enrollment rules are a good way of leveling the playing field. Is it perfect? Probably not, but I'm not sure how else to do it.

 

[Urbandale2013]

I like that they are considering something. After everyone gets off their high horses of you just need to try harder we can look at reality. I’ve gone over to schools like North when we have played them and the reality is they don’t have the ability to even be competitive. For football as an example they barely have enough players and half are either tiny or fat kids who take up space as their skill. High school sports is about learning to be on a team and learning about hard work. When your school has a great season by winning two games obviously you aren’t going to have a ton of participation. Classes should probably be based at least some on results. Winning and losing isn’t the reason for this. Increasing participation is.

 

[DeereClone]

Basing everything on a simple count is rather silly. Add a bit of competitive results into the picture. If you suck at a sport for say 3 years in a row you drop down a level. If you are dominating you go up a level. Maximum drop of one level and rise of two levels. You could keep the numbers the same by doing it in pairs (ie one drops someone else has to rise).

So let's pick on a school like Marshaltown. Hard to compete with the large schools in Des Moines. Let's say the football team goes 2-10, 4-8, and 1-11. They might drop down to 3A while a 3A team would take their place.

Just the time you do this the team that “played up” would have a drop off in talent and get killed playing up a level or 2.

Enrollment is the only way to sort. After that it sucks but life isn’t fair and there will be advantages and disadvantages in every situation and school district.

 

[3GenClone]

I wish KCCI would have included this stat from their newscast in the print article:

IN FACT, DURING THE LAST 10 YEARS, IN 92 FOOTBALL GAMES, THE CITY SCHOOLS LOST EVERY ONE BY AN AVERAGE SCORE OF 51-1​

That’s all DM schools against Dowling, Valley, both Ankeny schools and Waukee. I feel like that adds some weight to the conversation.

 

[BCClone]

I wish KCCI would have included this stat from their newscast in the print article:

IN FACT, DURING THE LAST 10 YEARS, IN 92 FOOTBALL GAMES, THE CITY SCHOOLS LOST EVERY ONE BY AN AVERAGE SCORE OF 51-1​

That’s all DM schools against Dowling, Valley, both Ankeny schools and Waukee. I feel like that adds some weight to the conversation.

Doesn’t that just mean the DM teams are bad?

 

[3GenClone]

Doesn’t that just mean the DM teams are bad?

Oh absolutely, but that’s the reason for the conversation. I currently live in DM and my oldest is in 2nd grade in DM public schools. I am shocked by the low turnout in DM youth sports and am not surprised that it reflects at the HS level. My daughter played soccer this year and was the only one on her team of 8 that went to DM public schools. 6 kids went to Christian/Catholic elementary schools and one went to a learning academy downtown. I signed her up thinking she would meet new kids from school but was shocked that there were only a handful of kids in the entire league that actually went to public schools.

I don’t think changing classes is going to fix DM HS athletic performance. I wish we could find a way to increase youth participation and eventually increase the number of youth sports options for kids in the metro. The next problem then is how to retain those kids so they don’t enroll elsewhere (such as Peter Jok transferring from Roosevelt to WDM Valley).

 

[BCClone]

Oh absolutely, but that’s the reason for the conversation. I currently live in DM and my oldest is in 2nd grade in DM public schools. I am shocked by the low turnout in DM youth sports and am not surprised that it reflects at the HS level. My daughter played soccer this year and was the only one on her team of 8 that went to DM public schools. 6 kids went to Christian/Catholic elementary schools and one went to a learning academy downtown. I signed her up thinking she would meet new kids from school but was shocked that there were only a handful of kids in the entire league that actually went to public schools.

I don’t think changing classes is going to fix DM HS athletic performance. I wish we could find a way to increase youth participation and eventually increase the number of youth sports options for kids in the metro. The next problem then is how to retain those kids so they don’t enroll elsewhere (such as Peter Jok transferring from Roosevelt to WDM Valley).

My kids attend a small school so I'm looking from the outside in on the situation. A big question that I have (because if I lived in a larger city it would probably be the position that we would lean towards), do many of the parents send their kids to a private school to get them what they feel is a superior academic learning situation which also then leads to those private schools also having a better athletic situation. It seems that the parents that send their kids to private schools are more involved in their lives and can afford to send them to extra camps, clinics, aau teams and such. Obviously there is some recruiting at them, I had friends who were talked to by the catholic schools and told how they would find host families for them and everything, but that is a small percentage of the population.

In what I've seen from the private schools that have been around me, it's the more involved parents who generally are more financially well off that send them to private schools and that also leads to the teams having more student involvement, better financial support and less academic causalities

This is what I've seen and besides having public and private championships, I don't know how you would change this.