Kobe Bryant is dead

Discussion in 'Pro Sports' started by CycloneDaddy, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Angie

    Angie Tugboats and arson.
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    The reason that some people are saying, "Right, he was a great basketball player, but..." are because his victim is out there watching all of this, and on what do you think she's focusing? (And before people say "alleged victim," remember that he said, "I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way [consensually]," thereby admitting it was rape before settling a civil suit - because one person consenting does not make it consensual.) Just a year and a half ago she was still having the NDA forced upon her, rather than being able to tell her story and find healing. So now you have people like Royce White (who is a joke at this point, looking for attention) going off on Twitter talking about how she was just making fake accusations, money-grubbing after a basketball star - and she can't even defend herself. That re-victimizes her again. Not a lot of people are going to be able to understand that, which is why the ones who do are trying to say, "Yes, let's honor what he did on the court, but maybe slow down the deification."

    Kobe's public apology was far, far better than any we've seen come from the "Me Too" movement - it's honestly remarkable. He's, for presumably many reasons, attempted to shape up his life in many ways. But it's not hard to understand why some people are a touch hesitant to participate in the 24/7 mainstream and social media blast about it. Especially people who have been victimized/affected by violent and/or sexual crimes themselves.
     
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  2. chadly82

    chadly82 Well-Known Member

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    Yup, not sure why someone at the news station would send that to him.
     
  3. Clonefan32

    Clonefan32 Well-Known Member

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    #263 Clonefan32, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
    I guess I don't see the value in trying to "define" someone who had died broadly. The sexual assault references seemed like this odd back and forth, like there's some need to mitigate the good things he's done in his life. I don't see the need to make sure you add a qualifier to comments and examples about the good he's done. It's as though people need some conclusion determination on where he falls on the good human spectrum.

    In my mind, he's dead and gone now. What value does it do to try to disparage his legacy? What is lost by focusing on the good he's done? What is hurt by trying to pull some good from a tragedy?

    Like any human, his story is filled with good and bad. My personal takeaway is I enjoyed watching him play basketball, it seemed like he was a good father and I've enjoyed seeing stories of his generosity.
     
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  4. Mr Janny

    Mr Janny Welcome to the Office of Secret Intelligence
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    If you look at what I'm saying, I'm going out of my way not to define him broadly. I'm doing the exact opposite. It's all him, good and bad. Legacies are complicated.
    My take on this comes from a personal place. My father taught me so much in his life. He was charitable, hard working and wise. I am eternally grateful for the man that he was and the gifts that he gave me. He was also an abusive alcoholic, of whom I have plenty of pretty awful memories. He exists in my memory as both of those things, and they can't be separated. Sure, I could only talk about the good things that he represented in my life, but those bad times shaped me as much as the good ones did. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the unpleasant things just because they're unpleasant, and the person is no longer with us, and the bad things don't diminish the good ones. A person's legacy is all of their deeds.
     
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  5. Angie

    Angie Tugboats and arson.
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    I understand that this is very hard for many to understand - but it re-victimizes the victim, and is reopening a wound for other victims who remember their own rapists getting away with it to just gloss over all of it. It triggers PTSD to see another rapist not being held accountable by the press. That is what it hurts.

    I totally understand it's not convenient or pretty. And to many, it's going to seem unkind. But that is the logic.
     
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  6. WooBadger18

    WooBadger18 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I completely agree with this. And just to add an additional perspective, I’ve mentioned on here that i was abused as a kid. Someday my abuser will die. It would be incredibly hurtful to turn on the tv or cone on here and constantly see people saying how great she was. That doesn’t mean they can’t acknowledge those things, but I also wouldn’t want people to just gloss over that she is an abuser.
     
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  7. Angie

    Angie Tugboats and arson.
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    I am so sorry. <3
     
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  8. AuH2O

    AuH2O Well-Known Member

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    My issue is specific. It is the need that all of these people on ESPN, the Tonight Show, the Today show, and on and on that knew Kobe feel tell us specifically that Kobe was a great husband and an example for all of us in that aspect of his life.

    My problem is not that people are focusing on the good. I'm looking at this as a father of a 12 year old boy most specifically. Having celebrities and sports talking heads come out and tell millions of boys and young men out there that Kobe is the example of how to be a great husband without any qualification or mention of what he did is a problem.

    There's a big difference between being respectful and focusing on the positives vs. what these celebrities are doing, which is holding someone up as an example to be followed without the proper context.
     
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  9. heitclone

    heitclone Well-Known Member

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    Perspective is probably what defines Kobe differently to different people. The sports world, especially the NBA is going to see him much different that the average person might. Hence the worship like remembrance we're seeing. Two big factors in that are age and race.

    Current NBA players were pretty young when Kobe went through his legal troubles, it would make sense that they wouldn't define him by something they maybe didn't totally understand as it happened and if I were an African American in this country, it wouldn't take much to convince me that an AA man (especially a wealthy, successful one) was falsely accused of sexually assaulting a white woman. I think there are a lot of people who would fall in to those two categories that believe Kobe is 100% innocent. I'm not saying I agree with that, I just think those factors could change your perspective on a person.


    I think a guy like Mike Tyson is similar, he did time for sexual assault, had issues with domestic assault but he's still relevant, even revered by people.
     
  10. Clonefan32

    Clonefan32 Well-Known Member

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    And maybe I shouldn't have quoted you because I didn't necessarily intend my comments as a direct response to what you said.

    I guess my thought is what is put out their publicly. It's fine for everyone to have personal opinions of someone. But I guess where people lose me is acting as though people who are publicly memorializing should have to qualify or mitigate their praise of him. If those people remember him as a good person, why should they be required to publicly balance the good with the bad?
     
  11. Clonefan32

    Clonefan32 Well-Known Member

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    I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but how exactly do you see this going? Let's take Kimmel, or Fallon, or TNT's coverage. If those people have fond memories of Kobe, should they really be obligated to include the bad?
     
  12. Angie

    Angie Tugboats and arson.
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    Not at all - they don't have to go over the negative; it is their show. But I'd say that either maybe steer clear of adulating words like "hero" and comparing him with Superman (like Kimmel did), or at least stop the moral outrage all over TV and the internet whenever someone who DIDN'T have the same positive experiences with him and/or dared to post about his negative history? Do a quick perusal through the comments on the NYT or Rolling Stone articles about how he was a complicated man, and see how many "how dare you" attack comments there are.
     
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  13. Hawkmi

    Hawkmi Well-Known Member

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    Seems odd for sure.
     
  14. Clonefan32

    Clonefan32 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I don't see how the bolded work together. I agree that the backlash against the WaPo author is absrud. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But if you value her negative opinion, why ask that people mitigate their positive feelings?
     
  15. Angie

    Angie Tugboats and arson.
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    I don't think I entirely understand what you're asking. I don't see anyone who has written about the rape denying that he was a great basketball player, had done charity, or was a good father. They aren't avoiding seeing any positive in him - in fact, every such "negative" (which is, in itself, a biased term) article I've seen has specifically mentioned those things, looking at the whole man - both bad and good. Nobody is asking anyone to stop loving his memory, or even talking about what he meant to them and their personal experiences - but very publicly bandying about terminology such as "a great man" and "a shining light" doesn't seem a touch beyond on a person who choked and raped a young girl, then said her name in court six times (as well as just decimating her personal history with accusations of varying truth) to terrorize her?
     
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  16. AuH2O

    AuH2O Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's a stretch to expect them not to tell us or impressionable boys that love the NBA that Kobe is an example for us to follow on how to be great husbands and just leave it at that. No qualification, no mention of previous mistakes or evolution. Just, yeah, he's great and you should be like him.

    Go read about the incident. When it happened, what all he said to police about this and other side action all just a few months after his wife gave birth to his daughter. Then you go tell your son(s) that Kobe is an example he should follow to learn how to be a great husband without any qualification or further explanation. Or go tell a guy your daughter is dating that he should use Kobe as a role model on how to be a great husband.

    And people that want to hold him up for changing or learning from his mistakes as some accomplishment is really sad and speaks to some horribly low expectations. You'd have to be pretty worthless if a behavior that nearly destroys your life doesn't straighten you up.
     
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  17. jpete24

    jpete24 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus christ. A weak moment (in my mind) is a lapse in judgment, but you learned from the mistake and made a change in life. I have friends that have DUI's but have never had one since, because they learned something from it. Would you argue that this person is a horrible person because they had a DUI and could have killed somebody on the roadway? I'm not condoning drinking and driving, but people do make mistakes and learn from them, and they are allowed to be respected.

    Yeah, Kobe fought the charges. Was that right? No, but what would you do in that situation? I bet you would everything you can to A) fix the mistake with your family and B) whatever you could to prevent the amount of damage to your brand/image.

    If the biggest mistake you've made in life was having sweets when you're on a diet or something, then you better have a parachute for how high up you are on that pedestal.
     
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  18. Clonefan32

    Clonefan32 Well-Known Member

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    I guess what I'm saying is if the people who are talking about him and knew him viewed him as a "great man" or a "shining light" why should they have to qualify their opinion of him? If they view (right or wrong) the good things he did against the allegations of wrong doing and come to that decision why should they have to mitigate their opinion of him?

    For the record, I liked Kobe as a basketball player, and it seems like he was a good dad, but I'm not ready to go to war on the "Kobe was a great person" front. I get what you're saying. But guess I just don't see an irresponsibility from people expressing their feelings and gratitude for him without qualifying it.
     
  19. Clonefan32

    Clonefan32 Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think people are doing that? Has anyone suggested people do that?

    If someone is telling people to sit their sons down and tell them they should look at Kobe as a role model as a husband, then to that extent I guess I agree with you.
     
  20. AuH2O

    AuH2O Well-Known Member

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    On the flipside, it's fair to view this as a 19 year old girl working at the front desk of a hotel for a few bucks an hour is maybe not going to get a real fair shake in a trial vs. a wildly wealthy and one of the most popular celebrities in the world. And maybe the thorough character assassination the high priced defense had executed to that point was a bit too much to deal with.
     
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