Game Thoughts Cincin Loss

[Pizzapitter]

ISU has almost had the star position player much like a LB. So it is not THAT different from a typical 3-4 once the ball is snapped. Agreed that ISUs rushes three a lot, especially in the first halves of games.

But here’s the big picture people need to be reminded of year after year when the ***** about the defense.

Look at the draft. Look at ISUs defensive track record in the draft vs other P4 schools, and look at ISUs defensive performance.

McDonald and Tampa have been outliers. In Heacocks time we’ve had great defenses without almost no NFL draftees.

We don’t do what other people do. And there’s a reason for that. Name a unit on either side of the ball in P4 football that’s gotten more consistent performance out of their talent than Heacock. Maybe he could do it with a traditional 3-4 or 4-3. But maybe the 3-3 stack has been one of the ingredients in being the talent equalizer.

There's zero debate re: Heacock.
He's made the most out of a load of "mediocre."
I don't put a lotta faith in the star thing, yet John & co has developed a # of mid-low stars into pretty good players.

 

[fsanford]

Any idea when he's coming back? This is major issue that is costing us easy points that you just can't be leaving out there.

Hopefully after the bye. Cost 9 or 12 points today not having him

 

[cycat7]

4-3 3-4? It doesn’t matter we need better lineman and especially linebackers

 

[fsanford]

ISU has almost had the star position player much like a LB. So it is not THAT different from a typical 3-4 once the ball is snapped. Agreed that ISUs rushes three a lot, especially in the first halves of games.

But here’s the big picture people need to be reminded of year after year when the ***** about the defense.

Look at the draft. Look at ISUs defensive track record in the draft vs other P4 schools, and look at ISUs defensive performance.

McDonald and Tampa have been outliers. In Heacocks time we’ve had great defenses without almost no NFL draftees.

We don’t do what other people do. And there’s a reason for that. Name a unit on either side of the ball in P4 football that’s gotten more consistent performance out of their talent than Heacock. Maybe he could do it with a traditional 3-4 or 4-3. But maybe the 3-3 stack has been one of the ingredients in being the talent equalizer.

Think this is spot on. I do think ISU is developing CB's thanks to Poteat, hope ISU can hang on to him. He is a helluva coach.

But I will always maintain ISU runs this defense because it is so unique. If you don't see it regularly it makes hard to prepare for and you can get by with lesser talent.

The service academies have made a living running offenses that the old Nebraska and Oklahoma teams loved.

The teams with crazy talent can shut them down, but the other 90% struggle with it. Scheme can be the great equalizer

 

[1SEIACLONE]

Patriots ran 3 down during their Superbowl runs.

In 2025 almost half the NFL teams run 3 down lineman.

It should not be a recruiting liability giving how many teams run it in the NFL

The big difference with the NFL the linebackers are really athletic and probably run 250.

Think part of the reason ISU DBs get a shot in the t NFL cuz they work with 3 down lineman system

ISU gave up 7 points in the 2nd half.
The problem is not so much the 3-3-5, it's the game planning to start.

ISU points allowed in the 2nd half is in the top 15 of fewest points allowed amongst 130 teams

If people are critical.of the defensive system explain why it works so well in the 2nd half but struggles from time to time in the first half.

I don't have the answer other than Heacock if give 15 minutes can make crazy adjustments

Today was a simple case of not going crazy with safety help in the 2nd half for the corners

Coaches all over the country come Heacock to learn the 3-3-5 so there must be something desirable

We brought up the safeties to play the run more was the halftime change and it worked. The question is why did we wait so long to make the change? They scored every time they had the ball in the first half. Why not after the first two defensive trips out on the field, was the change not made then?

Recruiting defensive lineman is the hardest position in football, so you really have to do what the squawks do and find kids from high schools, red shirt them and build them up and hope they turn out to be great players. They have been doing it for a couple of decades, if they can, we should be doing the same thing. Scouring high schools looking for kids that have tall and can put on an carry weight, they like wrestlers from high school, we should be looking for the same type of kids.

 

[Cyinthenorth]

I will start off in saying I am excited this team has a 5-1 start. With several games to go everything is still out there for this team including a Big 12 championship game appearance (likely need to win out for that), and likely a fun bowl matchup. Some don't care about that, but I do.

Offense

• The running game looked pretty good, 151 yards rushing is a decent day at the office. I hope Hansen can come back for Colorado.
• Brett Eskildsen continues to look like a deep threat downfield, he catches almost everything and like him a lot.
• We messed up by not getting Gabe Burkle involved today more often.
• When Hansen got hurt, i'd love to see someone else OTHER THAN Sama in short yardage. Dylan Lee, Aiden Flora, somebody else. Abu cannot move a pile or break many tackles

Defense

• Jon Heacock has forgotten more about football than I know. What I am about to say is hopefully not too snarky but just how I feel.
• When Cincinnati has a 4th and 1, we had a 3 down defensive lineman front. What am I missing or is that ridiculous to anyone else? If Cincin had ran the football more often in the second half I honestly feel like that's a blowout. I am so disappointed in our limited use of defensive lineman. How is Dom Orange supposed to be effective when he goes up against 2-3 guys each play? He has to be incredibly frustrated. Why not try a 4 down front of Jace Gilbert (end), Zamir Hawk at Nose, and Dom Orange at Def. Tackle alongside Trey Verdon at D End?
• Ezeguo is proving to me he is not effective at DT against the run, and provides zero threat in pass rush. It's tough to watch.
• I want to see Heacock try something different, we have two corners out for the year. Perhaps the recipe to win is NOT to drop 8 anymore, asking our younger corners to cover for 6 seconds will not bode well for us against CU, TCU, and other teams.. It just won't.
• We need to allot some funds this off season to a stud Defensive End or Linebacker. We just seem weak there when playing good offenses. I would actually be comfortable letting a player or two walk if it meant getting a stud at defensive end.
• The defense right now is 105th nationally in sacks. There are plenty of teams ranked ahead of us in sacks who have played one fewer game (think about that). Our alignment sucks in forcing the QB to feel pressured or make a poor throw.

For those who feel differently, I am happy to welcome a debate with the defensive part of this. Who in the college ranks, or the NFL on defense has won a national championship/super bowl in a defensive front that rushes 3 down linemen (last 40 years)? I cannot think of one. Beyond that, if are walking into recruits' homes who play defensive line, who the hell wants to play in a scheme where its smashing 3 guys against 5 on every play? I think the scheme is starting to impact recruiting. If you don't believe me, who is a good defensive end we have post Will McDonald?

I would love to be done with the 3 man front, but that would leave our 3rd and 4th string DBs in even worse situations imo. Not sure we can afford to do it this season, even if we did have the personnel to do it.

 

[cyphoon]

One thing that stood out to me were the gaping holes Cincy had to run through on offense. In the first half, you could see that runs were going for big yardage even before the back got the hand off.

Ok, so our run D was porous. At least they can't pass on our vaunted 3-3-5- defense, right?



We couldn't stop the pass either. When your D can't stop anything the other team is doing, plan for a long trip home.

H

 

[fsanford]

We brought up the safeties to play the run more was the halftime change and it worked. The question is why did we wait so long to make the change? They scored every time they had the ball in the first half. Why not after the first two defensive trips out on the field, was the change not made then?

Recruiting defensive lineman is the hardest position in football, so you really have to do what the squawks do and find kids from high schools, red shirt them and build them up and hope they turn out to be great players. They have been doing it for a couple of decades, if they can, we should be doing the same thing. Scouring high schools looking for kids that have tall and can put on an carry weight, they like wrestlers from high school, we should be looking for the same type of kids.

We sure did.

The best explanation I can figure is coaches thought they could make a stand in the RedZone. Using the back end line as deep safety coverage

But it was a failure the 3 TDs were scored from the 12-20 yard range.

I would try to turn tight ends into D linemen
Most are pretty athletic and have frames you could put weight on. At least on the ends.

 

[fsanford]

One thing that stood out to me were the gaping holes Cincy had to run through on offense. In the first half, you could see that runs were going for big yardage even before the back got the hand off.

Ok, so our run D was porous. At least they can't pass on our vaunted 3-3-5- defense, right?

View attachment 158173

We couldn't stop the pass either. When your D can't stop anything the other team is doing, plan for a long trip home.

H

I think they did stop the pass pretty well. Bearcats were 13 of 25. They had the 1 big play. Take that away they threw for like 130.

Think Sorsby came into this with over a 70% completion rate

So I would say they shut down the pass pretty well.

 

[1SEIACLONE]

We sure did.

The best explanation I can figure is coaches thought they could make a stand in the RedZone. Using the back end line as deep safety coverage

But it was a failure the 3 TDs were scored from the 12-20 yard range.

I would try to turn tight ends into D linemen
Most are pretty athletic and have frames you could put weight on. At least on the ends.

Agree about the TEs, but the problem is going to be getting them into wanting to convert over to become D lineman.

 

[deadeyededric]

Gee, I dunno. The Giants, Patriots, Steelers come immediately to mind. Belichick loves him some 3-4.

That was the defense of choice for most NFL teams in the 90s. It works fine but its hard to find guys that can play it effectively. There are only a handful of programs that could recruit the type of players you need to run it successfully. The assignments, personnel needed, and concepts are night and day different from a 4-3. As far as our 3-3-5, it has been how we've been so successful defensively the last few years. If Heacock doesn't come up with that scheme as our base defense we wouldn't have had near the success we've had. I absolutely love it. We do it as good as anyone ever has honestly. It allows us to get more speed on the field and how we've been able to compete with teams like OU in the past. The coaches didn't make the right adjustments today. It wasn't the scheme itself. There are NFL teams that have copied our defense for certain packages.

 

[Pizzapitter]

Agree about the TEs, but the problem is going to be getting them into wanting to convert over to become D lineman.

Agree 110%, yet we've managed to convert a # of stud receivers into less "sexy" d-backs.
Speaks volumes about our staff

 

[cyclone1209]

ISU has almost had the star position player much like a LB. So it is not THAT different from a typical 3-4 once the ball is snapped. Agreed that ISUs rushes three a lot, especially in the first halves of games.

But here’s the big picture people need to be reminded of year after year when the ***** about the defense.

Look at the draft. Look at ISUs defensive track record in the draft vs other P4 schools, and look at ISUs defensive performance.

McDonald and Tampa have been outliers. In Heacocks time we’ve had great defenses without almost no NFL draftees.

We don’t do what other people do. And there’s a reason for that. Name a unit on either side of the ball in P4 football that’s gotten more consistent performance out of their talent than Heacock. Maybe he could do it with a traditional 3-4 or 4-3. But maybe the 3-3 stack has been one of the ingredients in being the talent equalizer.

In games where we have played strong offenses last two years: Kansas last year, ASU last year, Iowa had 200+ rushing last year even tho we won, Cincinnati this year, 40 points to Miami last year, 30 points nearly to third string qb Utah last year. When we play any offense with a pulse, it’s more break then bend..

 

[cyclone1209]

That was the defense of choice for most NFL teams in the 90s. It works fine but its hard to find guys that can play it effectively. There are only a handful of programs that could recruit the type of players you need to run it successfully. The assignments, personnel needed, and concepts are night and day different from a 4-3. As far as our 3-3-5, it has been how we've been so successful defensively the last few years. If Heacock doesn't come up with that scheme as our base defense we wouldn't have had near the success we've had. I absolutely love it. It allows us to get more speed on the field and how we've been able to compete with teams like OU in the past. The coaches didn't make the right adjustments today. It wasn't the scheme itself. There are NFL teams that have copied our defense for certain packages.

The fact that there are zero college or nfl teams that win championships that use or have used the 3-3 defense as their base defense should worry people. We’re not smarter than everyone else. Oh and bc it was successful from 2019 to 2023 doesn’t mean it would be now. Will McDonald made the whole thing work and he’s gone.

 

[deadeyededric]

In games where we have played strong offenses last two years: Kansas last year, ASU last year, Iowa had 200+ rushing last year even tho we won, Cincinnati this year, 40 points to Miami last year, 30 points nearly to third string qb Utah last year. When we play any offense with a pulse, it’s more break then bend..

Its not a defense thats gonna hold teams to 200-250 yards of total offense. We are always going to give up yardage here and there. Its almost always gonna look like **** if you just look at the stat box. How we play in the red zone determines how effective it is.

 

[harimad]

The fact that there are zero college or nfl teams that win championships that use or have used the 3-3 defense as their base defense should worry people. We’re not smarter than everyone else. Oh and bc it was successful from 2019 to 2023 doesn’t mean it would be now. Will McDonald made the whole thing work and he’s gone.

While not a 3-3, Saban did adapt Heacock concepts in his defenses at Alabama, using a 4-2-5 alignment. Whether 3-3 or 4-2, it's still a six-man front. He even uses the "Star" designation for the hybrid position. He won a natty or two.

 

[fsanford]

The fact that there are zero college or nfl teams that win championships that use or have used the 3-3 defense as their base defense should worry people. We’re not smarter than everyone else. Oh and bc it was successful from 2019 to 2023 doesn’t mean it would be now. Will McDonald made the whole thing work and he’s gone.

There are NFL teams that have won Super Bowls recently that used 3 man fronts regularly

 

[deadeyededric]

The fact that there are zero college or nfl teams that win championships that use or have used the 3-3 defense as their base defense should worry people. We’re not smarter than everyone else. Oh and bc it was successful from 2019 to 2023 doesn’t mean it would be now. Will McDonald made the whole thing work and he’s gone.

We aren't in the NFL and we will never be a national championship contender. Let's be real. We don't have the athletes to run a 4-3, especially with the run and gun teams in the conference. We do lack pass rush at times but I think it's essential we have 5 on the back end. If we ditch the 3-3-5 we are going 4-2-5.

 

[deadeyededric]

While not a 3-3, Saban did adapt Heacock concepts in his defenses at Alabama, using a 4-2-5 alignment. Whether 3-3 or 4-2, it's still a six-man front. He even uses the "Star" designation for the hybrid position. He won a natty or two.

Hell yes he did.So did a lot of NFL coordinators. Heacock kind of revolutionized it.

 

[Peter]

Our best defenders have always been the backfield. Do people really thinking replacing Marcus Neal with Jace Gilbert is the solution?