Fouling evolution

[HFCS]

There is no coaching or strategy or adjustment that can fix the call they made on Grill at the 3:06 mark second half. It was a foul on WVU, or at least a travel. Changing that from a travel to a foul on ISU basically breaks the game of basketball and better to just completely ignore last night than to think about changing anything the staff does.

Do some of you seriously want us to coach the team to never jump straight in the air for a rebound? We're going to win games without jumping?

This game was on the stripes.

Look at it again.

 

[VeloClone]

There is no coaching or strategy or adjustment that can fix the call they made on Grill at the 3:06 mark second half. It was a foul on WVU, or at least a travel. Changing that from a travel to a foul on ISU basically breaks the game of basketball and better to just completely ignore last night than to think about changing anything the staff does.

Do some of you seriously want us to coach the team to never jump straight in the air for a rebound? We're going to win games without jumping?

This game was on the stripes.

Look at it again.

I have looked at this dozens of times and read people trying to explain how you can call this a foul on Grill. There is no way I can reach far enough to justify it. Grill is entitled to the space above him. When the player behind him comes down on top of him there is no way to say that is not displacement. Caleb did not move off his spot, only jumped. If you don't call the displacement, you can't call him for tripping when he is on the ground from being tackled.

There is no way to justify the overturn here.

 

[HFCS]

I have looked at this dozens of times and read people trying to explain how you can call this a foul on Grill. There is no way I can reach far enough to justify it. Grill is entitled to the space above him. When the player behind him comes down on top of him there is no way to say that is not displacement. Caleb did not move off his spot, only jumped. If you don't call the displacement, you can't call him for tripping when he is on the ground from being tackled.

There is no way to justify the overturn here.

It's why I'm laughing at the people who ATTACK our players and coaches for not adjusting.

What are they supposed to do?

For 5-10 of the worst calls in this game there's no "adjustment" that can be made.

 

[allfourcy]

I agree. But with our style it's a reality. I'm nervous for what it could mean in the tourney.

Agree. Can't believe how many times we've put the opponent in the bonus by the 12 to 8 minute marks. So then they can just chance driving to the bucket and initiating contact every possession.
Takes me back to how darn enjoyable the KU game at Hilton was. Free flowing basketball with neither team in the bonus in the first half or not until at least close to it. Is Kansas really that unaggressive or was it a game where both teams played well or officiating was reasonable or what? Just wish we could see more basketball games like that.

 

[Cyforce]

There is no coaching or strategy or adjustment that can fix the call they made on Grill at the 3:06 mark second half. It was a foul on WVU, or at least a travel. Changing that from a travel to a foul on ISU basically breaks the game of basketball and better to just completely ignore last night than to think about changing anything the staff does.

Do some of you seriously want us to coach the team to never jump straight in the air for a rebound? We're going to win games without jumping?

This game was on the stripes.

Look at it again.

If that's what you got from this thread, I really don't know how to respond to you.

 

[nfrine]

This is not an official thread without ZRF.

 

[EarthIsMan]

Virginia/Tony Bennett is a program that has a history of top defenses (allowing fewest points per possession) while also have low fouling rates (FT attempts / FG attempts).

The general goals (limit dribble penetration) of the Packline (UVA) and no-middle defense (ISU) are similar, but there some different principles too. The Iowa State defense seems to emphasize creating turnovers- not as much with the Packline.

My guess is that ISU could reduce foul rate if they de-emphasized turnover creation which would reduce “handsiness”. Another is probably related to personnel where ISU could benefit having more athletic, rangy wings that can guard 1-5. The strength of this year and last year is exceptional well-rounded defensive guards that seem to make the engine go, whereas the wing and post levels have some deficiencies.

 

[HFCS]

If that's what you got from this thread, I really don't know how to respond to you.

I saw a good dozen posters saying they need to "adapt" to the calls. Sometimes that's possible, sometimes like last night it's not remotely possible.

There's no adapting to not being allowed to jump vertical for a rebound without touching anybody.

Certain people can look at obvious bad calls and rip on the players and coaches instead of acknowledging the reality. I guess that's how they cope.

TONS of people freaking out in real time that Grill "can't finish" a layup, then the next morning somebody gets a better view that shows he did get his ankle stepped on as he was going to the basket.

 

[EarthIsMan]

I saw a good dozen posters saying they need to "adapt" to the calls. Sometimes that's possible, sometimes like last night it's not remotely possible.

There's no adapting to not being allowed to jump vertical for a rebound without touching anybody.

Certain people can look at obvious bad calls and rip on the players and coaches instead of acknowledging the reality. I guess that's how they cope.

TONS of people freaking out in real time that Grill "can't finish" a layup, then the next morning somebody gets a better view that shows he did get his ankle stepped on as he was going to the basket.

The game vs. WVA was a bit ridiculous in terms of officiating consistency (sample size of 1), but ISU has been in the top 10 percentile for fouling rate this year and last year (sample size of many games).

This would suggest to me that the high fouling rate is negative characteristic of ISU’s defensive identity and worth investigating. However, it might be as simple as creating turnovers is more valuable (equating to winning) than trying to reduce the foul rate for the 2022 and 2023 ISU teams

 

[HFCS]

The game vs. WVA was a bit ridiculous in terms of officiating consistency (sample size of 1), but ISU has been in the top 10 percentile for fouling rate this year and last year (sample size of many games).

This would suggest to me that the high fouling rate is negative characteristic of ISU’s defensive identity and worth investigating. However, it might be as simple as creating turnovers is more valuable (equating to winning) than trying to reduce the foul rate for the 2022 and 2023 ISU teams

I think there are some games where they should learn and adapt, that's true even for teams that don't have a physical identity within certain games.

To change the staff's core strategy based on the "officiating" last night would be totally asinine. I'm sure TJ and every assistant and every player knows it. Several of our 30 "fouls" were players doing exactly what you'd coach a player to do.

There was one guy obsessing that ISU didn't win the battle for loose balls...they dominated rebounding and won the turnover margin. What else are they supposed to do? Maybe just a troll, but also possible he wants to blame literally everything but officiating.

 

[Cyforce]

The game vs. WVA was a bit ridiculous in terms of officiating consistency (sample size of 1), but ISU has been in the top 10 percentile for fouling rate this year and last year (sample size of many games).

This would suggest to me that the high fouling rate is negative characteristic of ISU’s defensive identity and worth investigating. However, it might be as simple as creating turnovers is more valuable (equating to winning) than trying to reduce the foul rate for the 2022 and 2023 ISU teams

Exactly, we get bad calls but it's easy to make bad calls against us because we foul so often. It's much like umpires giving strikes to putchers that are consistently around the zone where pitchwrs that struggle finding the zone aren't as likely to get borderline pitches.

 

[HFCS]

Exactly, we get bad calls but it's easy to make bad calls against us because we foul so often. It's much like umpires giving strikes to putchers that are consistently around the zone where pitchwrs that struggle finding the zone aren't as likely to get borderline pitches.

That's exactly why last night was one of the worst officiated ISU games of all time, WVU fouls at least as much. I've never seen a game of theirs under Huggins that was a beautiful well played game like our two games against KU this year just off the top of my head.

 

[isucy86]

Agreed. And, as our recruits improve offensively we may not have to play that style of defense every night.

We might not trap as much. Or maybe we do more full-court pressure. Or maybe we get tougher in straight-up man.

But I feel TJ wants the identity of this team to be in its defensive intensity. Once a coach asks less of his players regarding defensive intensity, its a slippery slope and players feel it is OK to revert to old tendencies.

I don't think it's an either/or regarding offense/defense. A team can be a great defensive team and great offensive team. Especially if TJ recruits athletes with length for the 3-5 spots.

 

[AllInForISU]

There is no coaching or strategy or adjustment that can fix the call they made on Grill at the 3:06 mark second half. It was a foul on WVU, or at least a travel. Changing that from a travel to a foul on ISU basically breaks the game of basketball and better to just completely ignore last night than to think about changing anything the staff does.

Do some of you seriously want us to coach the team to never jump straight in the air for a rebound? We're going to win games without jumping?

This game was on the stripes.

Look at it again.

Yes absolutely. This official was so out of position to make this call it’s not even funny. I would almost guarantee he couldn’t even see the play unless he could see right through Jaz. As the trail official was supposed to be covering from free throw line extended then down to the corner along the three point line. 100% that he had no business making that call. So not only did he make a bad call, he went way out of his zone to make the bad call. Double whammy.