This is why Prohm must go........

[Sigmapolis]

He didnt get benched, he was the starter at the beginning of the season, got injured, then was forced to come off the bench right when he came back. Getting benched would be getting put right back in the starting lineup when hes healthy, sucking, then another player taking your starting job because they are better. Thats not what happened at all.

It did not seem to hurt Tyrus McGee or sophomore Naz Mitrou-Long any.

Haliburton took his spot and was better. Nobody owns their spot.

Many of us would be with you that LW might have deserved to start over THT, but, again, LW played more minutes than Talen in the Big 12.

You are grasping at anything you can in acting like Lindell starting, taking more shots (away from Shayok, almost by necessity, a better scorer), or handling the ball more (invariably leading to way more turnovers and fewer assists than having NWB or TH initiating the offense) would have improved our squad last year.

Prohm should deserve credit for recognizing that LW was a better bench gunner than anything else. He performed really well in that role, too.

Trent Green did not get his spot back from Kurt Warner.

 

[Statefan10]

It did not seem to hurt Tyrus McGee or sophomore Naz Mitrou-Long any.

Haliburton took his spot and was better. Nobody owns their spot.

Many of us would be with you that LW might have deserved to start over THT, but, again, LW played more minutes than Talen in the Big 12.

You are grasping at anything you can in acting like Lindell starting, taking more shots (away from Shayok, almost by necessity, a better scorer), or handling the ball more (invariably leading to way more turnovers and fewer assists than having NWB or TH initiating the offense) would have improved our squad last year.

Prohm should deserve credit for recognizing that LW was a better bench gunner than anything else. He performed really well in that role, too.

Trent Green did not get his spot back from Kurt Warner.

I don't remember Drew Bledsoe every playing again for the Patriots either

 

[Halincandenza]

He didnt get benched, he was the starter at the beginning of the season, got injured, then was forced to come off the bench right when he came back. Getting benched would be getting put right back in the starting lineup when hes healthy, sucking, then another player taking your starting job because they are better. Thats not what happened at all.

Prohm created an even bigger problem when he kept telling Lindell and the media that he was going to get him into the starting lineup but then didn't. I also think people and Prohm really put too much into a wins against Illinois and SDSU. Those weren't good teams and they hadn't beaten anyone good with Lindell out but people were acting like they were playing so well.

 

[Statefan10]

Prohm created an even bigger problem when he kept telling Lindell and the media that he was going to get him into the starting lineup but then didn't. I also think people and Prohm really put too much into a wins against Illinois and SDSU. Those weren't good teams and they hadn't beaten anyone good with Lindell out but people were acting like they were playing so well.

I completely agree with the bolded. But although the Illinois and SDSU wins were nothing to rant and rave about, the team looked like it was developing some chemistry with one another. Lindell was out for quite some time and those games the guys seemed to click. The ball was moving tremendously, guys were knocking down shots, and we were playing good defense. I think it was a difficult decision for Prohm but the way he handled it towards the media and fans was not the correct way.

 

[snowcraig2.0]

It did not seem to hurt Tyrus McGee or sophomore Naz Mitrou-Long any.

Haliburton took his spot and was better. Nobody owns their spot.

Many of us would be with you that LW might have deserved to start over THT, but, again, LW played more minutes than Talen in the Big 12.

You are grasping at anything you can in acting like Lindell starting, taking more shots (away from Shayok, almost by necessity, a better scorer), or handling the ball more (invariably leading to way more turnovers and fewer assists than having NWB or TH initiating the offense) would have improved our squad last year.

Prohm should deserve credit for recognizing that LW was a better bench gunner than anything else. He performed really well in that role, too.

Trent Green did not get his spot back from Kurt Warner.

He was literally 100% wrong about this.

 

[megamanxzero35]

My honest opinion was that people had a love affair with Fred Hoiberg. He was the golden child, the pretty boy.. The Mayor. There was blind optimism because people believed no matter the outcome of a game, Fred would fix the issues. People wouldn't blame Fred, they'd blame the team or give credit to the opposing team. They'd blame the other team's player for going off for 44, instead of blaming the defense that was being played. I would say we all fell into this trap of comfortability that Fred created.. We felt invincible.

Once Prohm came to Iowa State I think a lot of people, including me, instantly started to feel uncomfortable. Something felt off about the program. Sure we had the same players, but everything felt a little bit different. Because it felt different, we started to judge Prohm differently. We'd compare Prohm to Fred, compare the players we got to the players Fred had / was recruiting, the offenses and defenses he'd run, etc. We've now gotten to the point where people are starting to talk down some successful seasons because if "X" were coaching this team, we'd have a national championship appearance by now. Some fans are blaming the change of lights in Hilton to shooting performance, some are blaming not practicing in Hilton enough, some fans are even throwing in the towel ten games into a season, a season in which we are very young and have a lot of new people playing together (and have yet to lose to a bad team). People are saying Hilton Magic is dead.

You know what one of the first things Coach Prohm said when we won in KC last March? He said Iowa State University has the best fans in the nation and there isn't another program that comes close to being able to do what we do. He's so thankful for us fans and is crushed when his teams lose because he knows it crushes us fans to. Both him and Matt Campbell understand us and want to be in Ames and succeed. Hilton Magic isn't about who the coach is or who's playing but what the fans make it. I will back up Coach Prohm and hope that his team succeeds the rest of the way this year.

This is exactly what I have been feeling for the past couple years. Fred has been viewed as this golden child for his time here and Prohm is fighting his ghost as it hangs over the program.

 

[Sigmapolis]

He was literally 100% wrong about this.

None of you have tried to make an argument about this besides just saying me/others are wrong or vague stuff about "the mentality of a starter."

Care to offer some statistical evidence that LW should have been playing more, shooting more, or handling the ball as the PG more often?

Playing more...? Already did more than THT, should he have taken minutes away from Shayok or Haliburton instead?

Shooting more...? Already had a high usage.

Handling the ball...? Have you seen his dismal ATR?

The eye test on his defense was... not great, either.

 

[Sigmapolis]

This is exactly what I have been feeling for the past couple years. Fred has been viewed as this golden child for his time here and Prohm is fighting his ghost as it hangs over the program.

A ghost that people basically credit for winning a national title even if he never made it past the first round of the second weekend... and only once.

 

[Statefan10]

This is exactly what I have been feeling for the past couple years. Fred has been viewed as this golden child for his time here and Prohm is fighting his ghost as it hangs over the program.

Correct. And Prohm shouldn't be completely unwarranted from criticism and blame, but it seems like he's the only one being blamed when things go wrong, and when things go right he doesn't get the praise he should.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Correct. And Prohm shouldn't be completely unwarranted from criticism and blame, but it seems like he's the only one being blamed when things go wrong, and when things go right he doesn't get the praise he should.

The things they want to criticize him for are not even the right things, too.

See this stupid "Lindell starting would have saved us" narrative.

 

[Halincandenza]

None of you have tried to make an argument about this besides just saying me/others are wrong or vague stuff about "the mentality of a starter."

Care to offer some statistical evidence that LW should have been playing more, shooting more, or handling the ball as the PG more often?

Playing more...? Already did more than THT, should he have taken minutes away from Shayok or Haliburton instead?

Shooting more...? Already had a high usage.

Handling the ball...? Have you seen his dismal ATR?

The eye test on his defense was... not great, either.

Definitely should have been playing more. The lineups with the best efficiency margins all had Lindell in them from what I remember from last year. And yes it does cause a problem when you lose your job just because you were injured and the coach is telling you and others that you will be starting but then don't. He mishandled things last season and admitted it, not sure why you can't?

 

[Sigmapolis]

Definitely should have been playing more. The lineups with the best efficiency margins all had Lindell in them from what I remember from last year. And yes it does cause a problem when you lose your job just because you were injured and the coach is telling you and others that you will be starting but then don't. He mishandled things last season and admitted it, not sure why you can't?

I have said on here several times I would have started LW over THT.

I can see the mixture of their minutes going a little more in the LW direction, too.

But I would not have played Nick, Shayok, or Haliburton less.

Would that have helped a little? Yes, but not really all that much.

Part of me wonders if Prohm saying publicly that "Lindell might be starting again" soon was a mistake, but it also might have been an attempt to motivate him. Maybe he was not meeting some expectations in practice for that to happen.

Either way, on the scale of things that went wrong, this is pretty low.

 

[Halincandenza]

I have said on here several times I would have started LW over THT.

I can see the mixture of their minutes going a little more in the LW direction, too.

But I would not have played Nick, Shayok, or Haliburton less.

Would that have helped a little? Yes, but not really all that much.

Part of me wonders if Prohm saying publicly that "Lindell might be starting again" soon was a mistake, but it also might have been an attempt to motivate him. Maybe he was not meeting some expectations in practice for that to happen.

Either way, on the scale of things that went wrong, this is pretty low.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree on some aspects but I understand where you are coming from.

 

[megamanxzero35]

Correct. And Prohm shouldn't be completely unwarranted from criticism and blame, but it seems like he's the only one being blamed when things go wrong, and when things go right he doesn't get the praise he should.

Yeah, I had a lot more there but I deleted it. Prohm has been a better recruiter than Fred. Maybe not transfers but you are competing with Duke, Kentucky, etc for high level transfers now. But he has had better and probably more HS recruits.

I think Prohm has also learned a lesson that at Iowa State, one and done level talent isn't all its cracked up to be. Fred never landed that kind of talent so we never saw the roster issues it could cause. LW never wanted to be at Iowa State, he never bought into Iowa State, he was here for himself and that was it. LW might be my least favorite Cyclone basketball play of the last decade. Then you have THT who I like, but you can tell the staff never thought he'd be a one and done with the way they recruited in the class after him. This team would have a very different look if he was still here. I think with this year class you can absolutely see a shift in Prohm's recruiting philosophy change. 4 year developmental players is the way Iowa State will be successful and sometimes you strike gold in a kid ranked in the 100s like Haliburton who blows up and plays like a top 20 player.

I'd like to see Prohm get better about in game coaching. Sometimes I feel he gives guys too long of leashes. Nixon shouldn't have the second most 3s attempted at 54(Haliburton at 56). Sometimes he waits too long to make substitutions. I also wouldn't mind seeing some staff shake up.

Prohm does some things better than Fred. Fred did some things better than Prohm. Honestly it is probably a wash but Fred lucked out on having a core of Ejim, Niang, Monte, Thomas, and Naz for his whole tenure that we never really needed to see him rebuild. Just plug and play. Prohm went all in on capitalizing on his roster for his first 2 years and now we are seeing him rebuild. I'd like to see into the world where Fred didn't leave and see how he handled that roster turnover. I'm guessing it would just be as bumpy.

 

[Statefan10]

Yeah, I had a lot more there but I deleted it. Prohm has been a better recruiter than Fred. Maybe not transfers but you are competing with Duke, Kentucky, etc for high level transfers now. But he has had better and probably more HS recruits.

I think Prohm has also learned a lesson that at Iowa State, one and done level talent isn't all its cracked up to be. Fred never landed that kind of talent so we never saw the roster issues it could cause. LW never wanted to be at Iowa State, he never bought into Iowa State, he was here for himself and that was it. LW might be my least favorite Cyclone basketball play of the last decade. Then you have THT who I like, but you can tell the staff never thought he'd be a one and done with the way they recruited in the class after him. This team would have a very different look if he was still here. I think with this year class you can absolutely see a shift in Prohm's recruiting philosophy change. 4 year developmental players is the way Iowa State will be successful and sometimes you strike gold in a kid ranked in the 100s like Haliburton who blows up and plays like a top 20 player.

I'd like to see Prohm get better about in game coaching. Sometimes I feel he gives guys too long of leashes. Nixon shouldn't have the second most 3s attempted at 54(Haliburton at 56). Sometimes he waits too long to make substitutions. I also wouldn't mind seeing some staff shake up.

Prohm does some things better than Fred. Fred did some things better than Prohm. Honestly it is probably a wash but Fred lucked out on having a core of Ejim, Niang, Monte, Thomas, and Naz for his whole tenure that we never really needed to see him rebuild. Just plug and play. Prohm went all in on capitalizing on his roster for his first 2 years and now we are seeing him rebuild. I'd like to see into the world where Fred didn't leave and see how he handled that roster turnover. I'm guessing it would just be as bumpy.

I completely agree with Prohm and his recruiting philosophy. I think he knows that he has to find 4 year guys as well as sprinkle a one and done type player into the system. This next recruiting class seems to be very solid, and full with guys that will probably play 3 or more years at Iowa State. Prohm's eye for talent is tremendous, but I believe he still needs to work on some in game scenario stuff, as do most coaches.

I disagree, respectfully of course, about what Fred's next year would've looked like had he stayed. I'm fairly confident that there were a few very good recruits that were leaning pretty heavily towards Iowa State the next year and the following year. None of those guys came to light because Fred stopped trying on the recruiting end once he knew the Bulls job was going to open (which he knew about halfway through the 2014-2015 year). That next year under Fred would've been unbelievable, but it is what it is.

 

[CTTB78]

There is ZERO chance JP wants to show CSP the door so I won't waste time with that bandwagon.
But I do agree that something needs to change/improve on the Xs and Os. Who should be the most likely assistant to go, and do we go after an up and comer, or an older experienced guy?

 

[VeloClone]

...
I'd like to see Prohm get better about in game coaching. Sometimes I feel he gives guys too long of leashes. Nixon shouldn't have the second most 3s attempted at 54(Haliburton at 56). Sometimes he waits too long to make substitutions. I also wouldn't mind seeing some staff shake up.
...

I think Prohm could learn a lot from Fran on how to handle his lineups.

 

[jcisuclones]

I think Prohm could learn a lot from Fran on how to handle his lineups.







View attachment 69334

That lineup would look like:

Carter Boothe
Eric Steyer
Caleb Grill
Luke Anderson (would not have been asked to transfer)
Mike Jacobson

 

[FinalFourCy]

Prohm created an even bigger problem when he kept telling Lindell and the media that he was going to get him into the starting lineup but then didn't. I also think people and Prohm really put too much into a wins against Illinois and SDSU. Those weren't good teams and they hadn't beaten anyone good with Lindell out but people were acting like they were playing so well.

Agree, Prohm didn’t help himself with that.

More than anything people put way too much in Wigginton’s freshman season. We were at our best last year with Wigginton utilized as a perimeter shooter and a high-usage-offense-off the bench guy.

 

[SolarGarlic]

A lot of this thread is arguing over the weight of the Big 12 Tournament and the NCAA Tournament when NCAA seed is more indicative of the team's overall success. Under Hoiberg, we had NCAA seeds of:

8
10
3
3

Prohm's teams have earned seeds of:

4
5
6

Prohm's two best teams were stacked with Hoiberg's players. This isn't as complicated as this thread is making it out to be. Prohm hasn't shown that he's capable of maintaining what Fred started. From wins to team identity to protecting home court to national media attention, Prohm has been worse than Hoiberg. You can twist the numbers and the narrative, but it's obvious to anyone who has watched the games.

The program has gone from a Top 20 program to more of a Top 40 program. If Prohm can get them to the tournament the next two years, that's a step in the right direction and on par with ISU's history. But we've seen what's possible, and that will always be a mark against Prohm, whether that's fair or not. If we're going to be a Top 40 program, we have to win a game in the NCAA tournament (like Hoiberg did with the 8 and 10 seeds) more often than not, or it's going to feel like a disappointment.