Do what you can with the defense, but we just have too many injuries to expect it to be great. Time to open up the playbook on offense. We are going to need focus on outscoring opponents in higher scoring games.
Kansas Game Thoughts (Defense specifically)
- Thread starter cyclone1209
- Start date
So, we were not injured versus West Virginia, and Baylor? Or even Tech last week, who has a pretty good offense and needed a last second TD to score 23? UCF essentially scored 21. West Virginia had what, 16?
So I'm sorry, the injury thing is valid, of course.
But its also a cop out. Because we've been injured for a while now and largely we were still playing well defensively. Largely.
It comes down to two-3 things which aren't easy but are true.
1) We 've not developed a pass rusher since Will McDonald. We tried to address it in the portal, I know, but in terms of recruitment, we don't apparently have anyone who at least on 3rd down, can win consistently.
2) I've already talked about our LB's and their overall limitations. The injuries and experience make that part worse but even with our starters.. again. They're not conference title winning standard IMO.
3) Our secondary, while very good, outside of Porter, lacks top end speed for corners and safeties.
This defensive scheme is designed to hide all of that. Through confusion, being unique, etc.
When you get found out, it looks really bad.
Long term... we've got to become more athletic on defense. We're not competing with Texas and Alabama or even Tech whose spending big. But we need to be able to upgrade there. Because right now it feels like anytime there is a hole in a run fit or coverage, its a TD. Not a 40 yard gain but just a straight TD.
So I'm sorry, the injury thing is valid, of course.
But its also a cop out. Because we've been injured for a while now and largely we were still playing well defensively. Largely.
It comes down to two-3 things which aren't easy but are true.
1) We 've not developed a pass rusher since Will McDonald. We tried to address it in the portal, I know, but in terms of recruitment, we don't apparently have anyone who at least on 3rd down, can win consistently.
2) I've already talked about our LB's and their overall limitations. The injuries and experience make that part worse but even with our starters.. again. They're not conference title winning standard IMO.
3) Our secondary, while very good, outside of Porter, lacks top end speed for corners and safeties.
This defensive scheme is designed to hide all of that. Through confusion, being unique, etc.
When you get found out, it looks really bad.
Long term... we've got to become more athletic on defense. We're not competing with Texas and Alabama or even Tech whose spending big. But we need to be able to upgrade there. Because right now it feels like anytime there is a hole in a run fit or coverage, its a TD. Not a 40 yard gain but just a straight TD.
D Orange and Verdon being banged up is something that is different than what things were like against West Virginia.
Missing them 100% matters. But I have liked what I've seen from Hawk at Defensive tackle. He's had some good moments.
Injuries can be why you start to fall off of a mountain top. No doubt, they can be why you lose your balance. For me, you even really fall all the way off when you don't have enough quality depth.
Like on the DL. Orange is a monster. but with TO, Peterson, Singleton, and some others who have played rotational roles for a few years...if you have depth, its not a B to a D situation. I guess that's my point.
That's where you go from being a bowl team to a true contender. I think in a way that is what separates teams that win 7-8 from teams that win 9-10+ more than almost anything.
Sure, talent. But also the ability to navigate injuries with depth. And that's why not too many teams win 9+ games every single year cause its hard to do.
My defensive takeaway from yesterday is that Kansas really had us figured out from a scheme standpoint.
Daniels was only 12/24 passing yesterday, so at first glance it looks like he struggled. Dig deeper though, and you can see that they managed 295 yards on those 12 completions. That is 24.6 yards per completion! And still more than 12 per attempt, which is crazy high. In the NFL, 9 yards per attempt is considered elite.
Kansas was content to run long developing pass routes knowing that their QB would have 3-5 seconds to throw. They ran our safeties off with decoys, and then hit deep crossers, digs, out, and wheel routes for 20 yard gains.
One play I distinctly remember: we rush 3 and drop everyone else in zone, they run our safeties off deep, and the slot receiver on the left side runs a deep drag or crosser clear across the field and catches the ball wide open about 5 yards from the opposite sideline. Dude ran 40-50 yards before catching the ball with no one near him. Takes 5 seconds to run that far. Our safeties were 20 yards deeper than him, and the rest of the zone was underneath him. 3 man rush never threatened the QB.
In short, they have us figured out. Honestly, I'm not sure our depleted LB core really hurt us much yesterday in the passing game. The balls were being thrown over their heads anyway.
The 3 man front needs to either evolve or die. Evolution demands it.
H
Daniels was only 12/24 passing yesterday, so at first glance it looks like he struggled. Dig deeper though, and you can see that they managed 295 yards on those 12 completions. That is 24.6 yards per completion! And still more than 12 per attempt, which is crazy high. In the NFL, 9 yards per attempt is considered elite.
Kansas was content to run long developing pass routes knowing that their QB would have 3-5 seconds to throw. They ran our safeties off with decoys, and then hit deep crossers, digs, out, and wheel routes for 20 yard gains.
One play I distinctly remember: we rush 3 and drop everyone else in zone, they run our safeties off deep, and the slot receiver on the left side runs a deep drag or crosser clear across the field and catches the ball wide open about 5 yards from the opposite sideline. Dude ran 40-50 yards before catching the ball with no one near him. Takes 5 seconds to run that far. Our safeties were 20 yards deeper than him, and the rest of the zone was underneath him. 3 man rush never threatened the QB.
In short, they have us figured out. Honestly, I'm not sure our depleted LB core really hurt us much yesterday in the passing game. The balls were being thrown over their heads anyway.
The 3 man front needs to either evolve or die. Evolution demands it.
H
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IMO having a monster like Orange in the middle is the key to this defense. He has been hurt since Baylor. Hawk didn't play or played very little I thought I saw him in on a play late so he must he hurt also.
Major injuries at every level of the defense makes it hard, especially against a dynamic offense. As far as the dime stack and bend don’t break philosophy, we have seen it work pretty consistently for us. Not sure what to do in the near term with all the injuries. Find a way to pull out the next two games and we’ll all be feeling better.
It sure seems like when Verdon goes out the defense just completely falls apart. Happened last year and happened yesterday. Feels like we should've had a better backup plan to go since he seems to always struggle with injuries
I was at the game yesterday and what upsets me the most is how long it takes our coaching staff to make adjustments. Can't continue to wait till halftime to make the nessacary adjustment. Kansas defense knew what our offense was going to do before we did.
But does the current version of our 3-3 have an edge rusher? Maybe on some downs, but in a lot of situations I see our 3 DL pinched inside lining up opposite the LG C RG. IMO it's tough for those 3 to get much push working that close and allows opposing tackles or TE's to wall off perimeter runs.
Other teams in the Big12 use the 3-3 front and are able to get pressure on the QB by bringing a LB or safety. But for some reason, even when Heacock brings 5 or 6 we struggle to get to the QB. I feel like it's because there are too many run/scramble lanes for opposing QB's, whether it be inside or wide.
The best pass defense is a pass rush. It also help create game changing negative plays- whether it be sacks, interceptions, holds or QB fumbles.
And it would be one thing if limitations of the 3-3 impacted only our pass defense. But this year we have been getting chunked in the run game, especially on the perimeter.
Iowa: 204 @ 5.4 yards/rush (225 w/o sacks)
Houston: 169 @ 5.5 yards/rush (187 w/o sacks & 85 yards by QB position)
Baylor: 79 @ 4.0 yards/rush (82 w/o sacks)
WVU: 148 @ 4.6 yards/rush (163 w/o sacks & 89 yards by QB position)
UCF: 354 @ 9.1 yards/rush (362 w/o sacks & 155 yards by QB position)
TT: 129 @ 3.8 yards/rush (150 w/o sacks)
KU: 237 @ 5.2 yards/rush (248 w/o sacks & 74 yards by QB position)
Sure injuries could be to blame, but it also seems like opposing OC's might finally be finding weaknesses in the 3-3-5 defense.
It was absolutely painful to sit in Arrowhead and watch an uninspired and pitiful performance by the cyclones. The O-line didn't give Becht a chance to get anything going. Hopefully the coaches start kicking the butts of the under-performers, maybe even themselves. It was a total team disaster.
Totally agreeI thought today was by far the toughest Cyclone game I have watched in about two years (this and the Memphis bowl game most likely). Offense to me was not the primary problem. The running game was fair, and I could argue Hansen should have had more carries. Rocco's one int was bad, but he did lead drives for points.
Defense - friends of the Cyclone fanatic board, I want to have an honest discussion about our defense and the way it's currently constructed. I have had it with the 3 man front defense. I welcome your feedback too. Reasons listed below:
1) Sacks are one of the defense equivalents of "explosive plays" for that side of the ball. See below, we are ranked #109th in total defensive sacks this year. The teams ranked around/near us in the 109th in sacks you ask? Virginia, Rutgers, South Alabama. Not exactly great programs. We have had weeks this year with zero sacks, and today was one of those games.
NCAA College Football FBS current team Stats | NCAA.com
Discover the current NCAA FBS Football leaders in every stats category, as well as historic leaders.www.ncaa.com
2) 3 man front Personnel Issue- I would submit if you have an Enyi Uwazurike in the middle (NFL player), and a Will McDonald (budding star NFL guy), you can absolutely do the 3 man front. It worked, because those guys were so damn good. They freed up everyone else in the linebacker level and secondary to play well too. JR Singleton is a nice player, so is Dom Orange - but we do not have the stars on the D line to play like this.
3) 3 man front Scheme Issue (rush defense) - Today we are playing Kansas. Kansas has a dual threat quarterback and NFL caliber running back. Why, oh why would we willingly give up a massive advantage to them on running plays? They got 6 yards automatically per carry b/c we had 3 down linemen and they had 5 men blocking. Our linebackers are not good enough in space with this scheme, and its kicking the crap out of guys like Dom and JR, asking them to butt heads with a guard and center on every play. (2 on 1)
4) 3 man front Scheme Issue (pass defense) - Today was a rough day for the secondary. It was rough in part b/c we got zero pressure on the quarterback. Skinner is a heck of a WR. However, when we rush 3 and we ask Myles Purchase to cover for 6 seconds, is that fair to him? I would say that we ask our corners to do too much sometimes in asking them to cover for so long. I have seen enough of 3 down lineman play patty cake with offensive tackles and the QB has enough time to make a sandwhich in the pocket.
There are some nice pieces at linebacker for us too. I like Beau Goodwin, and Cael Brezina, and Ebel. But in sticking to a 3 man front that means more pressure on the LBs. Should we be putting more pressure on the LBs with the injury situation right now?
Maybe i'm off on this one. We better have a couple of transfers incoming at Linebacker and at Defensive End. The current guys are making it hard against talented squads like Kansas. The Kennard Snyder guy is nowhere to be found, neither is Ikenna Ezeogu.
I have watched several KU games - their QB makes mistakes when pressured. When you provide zero pressure he can just move around until somebody is open or he sees a lane to run. Our own captain said others have figured us out.
I love our young kids at LB, but they are not ready. Our young DBs are not ready either.
I feel sorry for our three guys. Pretty tough assignment.
KU s better than their record. But, these are two bad losses.
I do not know the answer. I do not think you can change to a 4 man front this late in the year. The only answer seems to be more blitzes.
This right here: coaching staff before the season publicly stated we had the personnel & would be running some 4-man fronts. Snyder is better suited as DE in 4-man front. Majority of this staff coached 4 man fronts prior to our moving to our 3-3 scheme. While it did wonders, it is not too much to ask the coaching staff to throw in a different package at some points in the game. Plus, blitzing is a skill, so when using it have the correct personnel in there to do it.
Barrett out is also big. He had stretches of poor play, but overall he was one of the most violent OL, had shown improvement over the games, and i think he was physically stronger & didn't get walked into the backfield. Last 2 teams front 4 put a lot of pressure on us with just 4.
Last, while we typically do not record a lot of sacks, when our defense (3-3) is running optimally we are getting TFLs at a good rate, in particular on running plays. Here's where I think has been the largest gap in our armor. Whether schematically or from lessor talent, we have not been able to accomplish this for whatever reason. Not going by stats & just by memory here on this hypothesis, so I could be wrong as I drank profusely during & after the last 2 games.
Kansas had the skill players to expose the depleted Cyclone defense. Daniel's (with all the time in the world) was throwing frozen ropes, the running back Devin Neal was patiently selecting holes and alleys to run through. How about the throw that Daniels hit Grimm for the 70 yard touchdown? Daniels played above his pay grade.
injuries or not, we've been scouted and people have figured it out.
the pressure thing is a real, real issue.
Out of all the things we can complain about, the lack of OL development still continues to cost us....look at what Leipold has done in just a few seasons at Kansas (I understand this year has not been great from a wins and losses perspective but they've all been close losses)....KU's OL bullied our DL (PLEASE STOP RUSHING 3).
KU's OL is more developed than ours in just 4 seasons and Campbell's had 9 seasons to get this thing at least respectable and it continues to be bad. I'm not calling for Campbell's head but you can understand the frustration there.
And the offensive play calling still leaves a lot to be desired....let's be real, this isn't a Mouse thing, Campbell loves bland and boring football...that's great if you have an OL who can block and your rushers can get chunk yardage...the sad reality though is once Kansas got up 14-7, I knew we had already lost....yes we came back against Iowa and UCF, but their offenses are not nearly as good as Kansas'.
KU's OL is more developed than ours in just 4 seasons and Campbell's had 9 seasons to get this thing at least respectable and it continues to be bad. I'm not calling for Campbell's head but you can understand the frustration there.
And the offensive play calling still leaves a lot to be desired....let's be real, this isn't a Mouse thing, Campbell loves bland and boring football...that's great if you have an OL who can block and your rushers can get chunk yardage...the sad reality though is once Kansas got up 14-7, I knew we had already lost....yes we came back against Iowa and UCF, but their offenses are not nearly as good as Kansas'.
It's not hard to noodle this out. They are playing 2nd and 3rd string LB, in a defense that relies on having really good LB play. Frankly, it's surprising they've done as well as they have all year.
Yes KU killed them, but on top of the above, the 3-3-5 is vulnerable to a mobile QB, and Daniels played well to boot. It happens.
JH's defense relies on having great LB and safeties. The idea being that ISU will get a lot more great LB and S than DL. It's strategically smart for this program, and I don't think they should change it.
Yes KU killed them, but on top of the above, the 3-3-5 is vulnerable to a mobile QB, and Daniels played well to boot. It happens.
JH's defense relies on having great LB and safeties. The idea being that ISU will get a lot more great LB and S than DL. It's strategically smart for this program, and I don't think they should change it.
