Future Final Four for ISU WBB?

jbhtexas

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IMHO, Cyclone Kool Aid is like fine single malt scotch in that you sip it, not guzzle it. Not trying to pee on your Cheerios here. I know from your posts you are an enthusiastic supporter and an extremely optimist fan. My take is a little more measured and objective after almost 20 years of following along. When ISU first emerged as a program to be noticed and had those Sweet 16 and Elite 8 runs I thought we could build on that and get the recruits that might put us over the top to become an elite program. Never happened and I think now that that lost opportunity is just that, lost. Even when you get to the mountain it can be a quick tumble down again (see Oklahoma). WBB isn't like MBB where there is enough talent to go around and mid majors can Final Four and dance with the blue bloods. The disparity between the elites and the rest of NCAA pack is huge.

I hope we can bounce back to being a true top 25 and build on that. Next years class looks to be a good start on getting our **** together recruiting (maybe two good classes in a row). Assuming no key player quits, we lose only one player but are going to rely heavily on two sophomores and a bunch of freshman. Our next year seniors (taking off the Cyclone tinted glasses) are average Big 12 talent and you can't expect them to suddenly be all Big 12 as seniors. If the freshman prove to be Big 12 ready and if we find a team leader and if no one quits we should be a better team next year and maybe build on that. Best case is that one of the freshman is a team heart and soul type leader and we have a .500+ Big 12.

Of course everything in my mini-ramble here is all just "on paper" speculation. If you want the simple summary than my answer is no, Bill Fennelly will never take us to a Final Four appearance.
This is sobering, but pretty much dead on all the way through IMO.

The question arises as to why there is enough talent to "go around" to empower the non-blue bloods in MBB, but not in WBB. IMO, it's because the WBB game has been intentionally manipulated to be that way. The present physical style of play requires a certain kind of athleticism to be successful, and the number of players who possess that type of athleticism is just very limited. Any team that can stockpile such players is set to dominate.

If you look at DI attendance totals, average attendance per game is steadily declining and down about 10% from the 2008 peak...
http://www.ncaa.org/championships/statistics/womens-basketball-attendance
2007-2008: 1694
2008-2009: 1664
2009-2010: 1637
2010-2011: 1642
2011-2012: 1634
2012-2013: 1533

I don't know if this has anything do with the physical style of play, but for me personally, I really don't care much for the hack/grab/shove/armbar style that has permeated both the MBB and WBB games.
 
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mj4cy

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Who will be starting next year.

moody/buckley/johnson?


dont we have a couple studs coming in?
 

gizzsdad

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If you look at DI attendance totals, average attendance per game is steadily declining and down about 10% from the 2008 peak...
http://www.ncaa.org/championships/statistics/womens-basketball-attendance
2007-2008: 1694
2008-2009: 1664
2009-2010: 1637
2010-2011: 1642
2011-2012: 1634
2012-2013: 1533

I don't know if this has anything do with the physical style of play, but for me personally, I really don't care much for the hack/grab/shove/armbar style that has permeated both the MBB and WBB games.
Spot - On!! Even though our "announced" attendance has continued to be stellar, the actual attendance has declined significantly over the past 10 - 12 years. I understand that our administration/marketing folks are using the same formula as everyone else to derive announced attendance, but the wider the gap between announced/actual, the less credible the numbers are for everyone.

I also hate the way the way the game is currently officiated, but it's up to the NCAA to require officials to enforce the points of emphasis, or find officials who will. But it's also clear that many coaches (Blair, Carey, Mulkey, Auriemma, etal) have a vested interest in keeping the game rough, and diverge from the NCAA on that point.
 

acoustimac

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Who will be starting next year.

moody/buckley/johnson?


dont we have a couple studs coming in?
I hope the answer is whoever is the best in practice. This year's frosh will be more confident and settled. I hope the incoming freshmen will push the existing players to higher levels.
 

BoxsterCy

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This is sobering, but pretty much dead on all the way through IMO.

The question arises as to why there is enough talent to "go around" to empower the non-blue bloods in MBB, but not in WBB. IMO, it's because the WBB game has been intentionally manipulated to be that way. The present physical style of play requires a certain kind of athleticism be successful, and the number of players who possess that type of athleticism is just very limited. Any team that can stockpile such players is set to dominate.
Volleyball is gaining in popularity and participation. Lots of anecdotal evidence that it is impacting the talent pool at the high school levels and subsequently at the college levels. The NCAA and HS “basketbrawlâ€￾ version of hoops is not helping. Not every tall and athletic gal is going to opt for getting smacked around on a basketball court versus playing a fast paced sport where you don’t need to get beat up. With the rise of club volleyball going year round and overlapping seasons there isn’t much opportunity to play both, it’s either one or the other.

http://volleyblogseattle.blogspot.com/2013/06/ncaa-volleyball-rising-basketball.html




 

mred

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Who will be starting next year.

moody/buckley/johnson?


dont we have a couple studs coming in?
I think at least three of the five incoming freshmen have a chance to start - Durr, Fernstrom, and Ricketts (but no more than two of the three would be starting). Thomas and Bell theoretically could, but I think Bell's real opportunity is as a soph after Moody graduates. I really don't know much about Thomas, but she sounds like an Ellis type. All five freshmen could find themselves in the regular rotation.

I'm also very curious to see how Jensen does with a chance to actually have a real preseason.
 

Kitkat

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Volleyball is gaining in popularity and participation. Lots of anecdotal evidence that it is impacting the talent pool at the high school levels and subsequently at the college levels. The NCAA and HS “basketbrawl” version of hoops is not helping. Not every tall and athletic gal is going to opt for getting smacked around on a basketball court versus playing a fast paced sport where you don’t need to get beat up. With the rise of club volleyball going year round and overlapping seasons there isn’t much opportunity to play both, it’s either one or the other.

http://volleyblogseattle.blogspot.com/2013/06/ncaa-volleyball-rising-basketball.html


I think you may be on to something with the volleyball vs. basketball issue. One of next year's volleyball recruits, Alexis Conaway, a 6 ft. outside hitter, is also an outstanding basketball player who averaged slightly over 18 pts a game as a junior. Yet she will presumably play only v-ball at ISU. And I do agree with others that we need a deeper bench, and one that is actually "usable," but no doubt all coaches would want that kind of bench.

 

twistedredbird

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Volleyball is going to continue to grow. Rally scoring really makes it a much more fun and fast paced game.

Until thug ball is edited in WBB, I think the sport will continue to decline in popularity. As much of a fan of WBB I am, I don't enjoy watching it as much as I used to, when it was much more pure than the mens game.
 

Tornado man

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Volleyball is going to continue to grow. Rally scoring really makes it a much more fun and fast paced game.

Until thug ball is edited in WBB, I think the sport will continue to decline in popularity. As much of a fan of WBB I am, I don't enjoy watching it as much as I used to, when it was much more pure than the mens game.
A good defense, to me, is one that tries to take the offensive team out of its game and disrupt their flow. Because ISU plays such a passive and timid defense, designed to stay out of foul trouble, many of our fans call out any team employing more aggressive defense than us as playing "thug ball." I love to watch intense and aggressive defense. There are certain teams that take it to the extreme - Duke, Louisville, Texas A&M, Maryland (with a former BF asst. as HC), and Kentucky. I can't think of another team I've seen that takes it to the edge like that - certainly not UConn.
"Thug ball" is a term way overused on this board.
 

twistedredbird

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A good defense, to me, is one that tries to take the offensive team out of its game and disrupt their flow. Because ISU plays such a passive and timid defense, designed to stay out of foul trouble, many of our fans call out any team employing more aggressive defense than us as playing "thug ball." I love to watch intense and aggressive defense. There are certain teams that take it to the extreme - Duke, Louisville, Texas A&M, Maryland (with a former BF asst. as HC), and Kentucky. I can't think of another team I've seen that takes it to the edge like that - certainly not UConn.
"Thug ball" is a term way overused on this board.
You have identified the teams I would have, and there are a few more. It is a shame, many teams are going the route of athleticism over skill in bball. My concern, is that they are so physical, that the referees don't know what to call, so they call nothing.

I prefer an aggressive defense, as you do, and would agree, that UConn's defense is the epitome of pure clean aggressive defense.

And you know I hate our passive defense, I think it makes our offense timid as well. We had speed this year, and fear of fouls kept us from ever running any pressing defense. Heck, get our back ups in there to press - Kidd, at least. Or, if Jadda and Nikki and Brynn don't have fouls in the 2nd half, have them do it too.

I actually think ISU defense was more aggressive when we used to zone and trap religiously, then now. Funny, ISU used to be condemned for running the 2/3, now, the zone is the sexy defense again.
 

twistedredbird

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I think at least three of the five incoming freshmen have a chance to start - Durr, Fernstrom, and Ricketts (but no more than two of the three would be starting). Thomas and Bell theoretically could, but I think Bell's real opportunity is as a soph after Moody graduates. I really don't know much about Thomas, but she sounds like an Ellis type. All five freshmen could find themselves in the regular rotation.

I'm also very curious to see how Jensen does with a chance to actually have a real preseason.
Sad, once again, while I am excited to see them play, a successful season will rely once again on Freshman. We have got to build some depth in this program.
 

Royalclone

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Spesking of zone, it is becoming in vogue again, and I thought It gave ISU it's best chance to get back in the game as it was shutting down FSU. Still have to make shots too. BF may want to reinstitute more of it next year.

as far as playing more players, I think he is locked into the 7-8 player rotation philosophy. Maybe if there are certain other players who can fill a role at a crucial time, they might get some minutes, but it's gonna come down to 7 or 8 tops getting the real court time.

i sure hope that Jensen wasn't playing because she was still recovering, and not because she couldn't crack the rotation. If she could play and was any good, they wouldn't have had to go to the VB team for help. At least You'd think a healthy Jensen would play over T.
 

cyclone13

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as far as playing more players, I think he is locked into the 7-8 player rotation philosophy. Maybe if there are certain other players who can fill a role at a crucial time, they might get some minutes, but it's gonna come down to 7 or 8 tops getting the real court time.

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Too bad if this is the case. I trust BF but I think having a deep bench helps tremendously. He doesn't have to worry too much when starters get into foul trouble, he can have more weapon off the bench and it will also reduce the fatigue of the team.
 

mitten1975

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I personally think that ISU is in a great position to get into the final four and that is because of rabid fans, I am one included in that number. We need depth, and we need to develop that depth. I don't believe in the idea that you can have a roster like we had this year, (not taking anything away from the players, they were great) and win anything. We lacked the ability to have solid inside defense, and players that were versatile enough to score on some of the better defensive efforts that we ran up against.
 

savepolarbears

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as far as playing more players, I think he is locked into the 7-8 player rotation philosophy. Maybe if there are certain other players who can fill a role at a crucial time, they might get some minutes, but it's gonna come down to 7 or 8 tops getting the real court time.
I think the rotation will be deeper next year. He wants people to be able to come in and fill their role in the defense, and not turn the ball over. And you have to prove that in practice to get game time. I think several of the freshmen will contend for playing time. When I've heard him asked what his ideal rotation is, he has said around 9 is good, then shorten it at crunch time.

I, too, hope we will see more zone next year. To win, you have to be able to compete against all different types of teams. To have fast balls and change ups.

We're hoping this will be two solid classes in a row. Just need more depth in the post in the next class and we might have several seasons of exceptional success.

I saw Pop by the tunnel last night, I assume she is getting ready to go play again before too long. At least I hope she is.
 

psyclone51

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This is one of the more enjoyable threads to read. Some actual thought and logic rather than whining and snarling. Complements to you all - well most of you, anyway. I wish all threads were as enjoyable to read. Makes my thinking better as well.
 

acoustimac

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I really find it interesting how the wbb world goes in cycles. Everyone complained that Bill was behind the scene when he stuck with his vaunted zone for so long and begrudgingly switched to the man-to-man. Now the cycle is coming back around with teams moving back to the zone. I've always felt the zone allowed teams with a little less talent to compensate compared to the high profile squads like UConn who are loaded. Man-to-man seems to require fast, tough athletes that many teams only have a few of. Will be fun to watch it evolve. If things go back to the zone you know our squad will excel at it just like they did ten years ago.