Stop!

[simply1]

Hmmm. So are you trying to say someone who shoots 37 %, missing bunnies and layups, from an ample sample size of conference games, objectively deserves 15-20 minutes? Also one that is exploitable defensively?

What I think you really take issue with is the fact that a message board poster couldn't POSSIBLY have a valid point, on one particular subject, over a staff that does this for a living? Perish the thought.

Human error is pervasive snd that includes college coaches (who are human) as well as myself. Remember when Scott Drew used to take ridiculous timeouts, often when his team was in a middle of a run? I remember a game (several years back) when Baylor was playing Kentucky. Baylor was in the midst of an 8 to 10 point run, playing great basketball and carrying all the momentum. Inexplicably Drew calls a timeout, to the shock and dismay of the announcers (and myself). Kentucky came out of that timeout and mounted a run of their own. It was a senseless TO and a type Drew used to call all the time. At some point he either wisened uop to the stupidity or someone he respected got him to change tactics as he hasn't called similar TOs in 5 years.

Maybe TJ thinks BRE can do something he just isn't. Maybe they love his work ethic. At the end of the day, minutes should be justified by on court performance. Statically, visually, and objectively that isn't there. Unsurprisingly you didnt try to discredit that. Then again nobody has.

Do you not like Torvik for some reason? You ignored my post on Rob’s adjusted defense rating, which is pretty good and 21st in conference. OR% is 32nd. Blk% 19th.

He’s limited as a player, nobody is disagreeing with that. Your use of a couple advanced stats and claiming he’s not positive at anything is silly.

 

[ZRF]

Do you not like Torvik for some reason? You ignored my post on Rob’s adjusted defense rating, which is pretty good and 21st in conference. OR% is 32nd. Blk% 19th.

He’s limited as a player, nobody is disagreeing with that. Your use of a couple advanced stats and claiming he’s not positive at anything is silly.

No it isn't. OR and DR are offensive and defensive rebounding. His BPM is near the bottom of the league, as is his player rating. Torvik has Bob as one of the worst players in the league let alone on the team.

 

[simply1]

No it isn't. OR and DR are offensive and defensive rebounding. His BPM is near the bottom of the league, as is his player rating. Torvik has Bob as one of the worst players in the league let alone on the team.

What’s his adjusted defense? You keep missing it for some reason. I’ve posted it previously, I’m sure an advanced metrics Wizard like yourself can find it.

 

[ZRF]

What’s his adjusted defense? You keep missing it for some reason. I’ve posted it previously, I’m sure an advanced metrics Wizard like yourself can find it.

Lol, you mean the one that rates Demarion Watson as our best defender? That shows Watson, Tre King, and Robert Jones as our "best 3 defenders"? That's probably one of the most flawed stats on Torvik. When you take a look at the other stats, that have Bob as a below average to one of the worst in the league outside of rebounding and blocks, you can tell the stat is garbage.

Go a step further and isolate Bob among his peer group, the centers of the league. Outside of the flawed D-rating/skills he ranks DEAD LAST in at least half the categories. FG %, BPM. Orating, FT, Close 2% (if you add that), PRPG while ranking near the bottom in TOs, and midpack on blocks and rebounding. The only two plus categories are steals and the "defensive rating" you mention. Again. in looking at his company at the top of that rating you can tell it is immensely flawed in gauging true defensive performance.

It's hilarious that you cite Torvik as analytical evidence of Bob's mediocrity when, in fact, it consistently rates him near the bottom in most categories, epecially among his peer group (centers).

Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself:

https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.p...ar=2023&minmin=20&start=20221101&end=20230501

 

[AlCyJim]

JFC I get you don"t like BRE and wouldn't play him if you were the coach, which you are not. Go coach your own coach and be at the top of the conference. The team is 7-3 at the top of the conference. If thier were 3-7 maybe your ranting would be ok but you don't need to just pick on one player you don't like.

 

[Clonefan32]

Lol, you mean the one that rates Demarion Watson as our best defender? That shows Watson, Tre King, and Robert Jones as our "best 3 defenders"? That's probably one of the most flawed stats on Torvik. When you take a look at the other stats, that have Bob as a below average to one of the worst in the league outside of rebounding and blocks, you can tell the stat is garbage.

Go a step further and isolate Bob among his peer group, the centers of the league. Outside of the flawed D-rating/skills he ranks DEAD LAST in at least half the categories. FG %, BPM. Orating, FT, Close 2% (if you add that), PRPG while ranking near the bottom in TOs, and midpack on blocks and rebounding. The only two plus categories are steals and the "defensive rating" you mention. Again. in looking at his company at the top of that rating you can tell it is immensely flawed in gauging true defensive performance.

It's hilarious that you cite Torvik as analytical evidence of Bob's mediocrity when, in fact, it consistently rates him near the bottom in most categories, epecially among his peer group (centers).

Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself:

https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.p...ar=2023&minmin=20&start=20221101&end=20230501

Ok, so offer a theory. Let's hear it. Why do you think TJ continues to play Rob? If you're going to throw around non-sense about his inability to be objective, at least offer a thought as to why that would be.

 

[CyLyte2]

Lol, you mean the one that rates Demarion Watson as our best defender? That shows Watson, Tre King, and Robert Jones as our "best 3 defenders"? That's probably one of the most flawed stats on Torvik. When you take a look at the other stats, that have Bob as a below average to one of the worst in the league outside of rebounding and blocks, you can tell the stat is garbage.

Go a step further and isolate Bob among his peer group, the centers of the league. Outside of the flawed D-rating/skills he ranks DEAD LAST in at least half the categories. FG %, BPM. Orating, FT, Close 2% (if you add that), PRPG while ranking near the bottom in TOs, and midpack on blocks and rebounding. The only two plus categories are steals and the "defensive rating" you mention. Again. in looking at his company at the top of that rating you can tell it is immensely flawed in gauging true defensive performance.

It's hilarious that you cite Torvik as analytical evidence of Bob's mediocrity when, in fact, it consistently rates him near the bottom in most categories, epecially among his peer group (centers).

Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself:

https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.p...ar=2023&minmin=20&start=20221101&end=20230501

Stats I disagree with are flawed!!!!! Maroon.

 

[CyLyte2]

JFC I get you don"t like BRE and wouldn't play him if you were the coach, which you are not. Go coach your own coach and be at the top of the conference. The team is 7-3 at the top of the conference. If thier were 3-7 maybe your ranting would be ok but you don't need to just pick on one player you don't like.

That’s where the mods need to mod.

 

[Jdk]

Come on kids quit your bickering we are nearing first place in the conference these players for Iowa State and the coaches must be doing something right go get in a corner and argue with your self

 

[cyclonehomer]

Repeating but just like marginal shooters need to put up a 3 to keep hold the defense accountable, there needs to be a feed to the post. I agree that a kick back out could be more helpful for sure.

Per the bolded: is there actually a stat for this? Like if Rob touches the ball down low it's a turnover or miss most of the time?

These numbers are easily findable, you just have to look. In B12 play, Rob has a TS of 36% while he doesn't shoot from outside of 5 feet. That is exceptionally poor shooting. He also has a turnover rate 4 times higher than his assist rate.

As others have said, it wouldn't be a problem if he had a low usage rate or whatever. He's currently tied for third on the team in usage, though.

It doesn't paint the whole picture, and there are things you can't really quantify analytically, but Rob in the B12 has REALLY struggled by the numbers. Again, there's more to the puzzle but his minutes allocation is hard to argue for objectively without just shutting down any discussion beyond "trust the coaches." That's probably the answer, but what is the point of a sports message board if not to discuss things happening with the team?

 

[ZRF]

These numbers are easily findable, you just have to look. In B12 play, Rob has a TS of 36% while he doesn't shoot from outside of 5 feet. That is exceptionally poor shooting. He also has a turnover rate 4 times higher than his assist rate.

As others have said, it wouldn't be a problem if he had a low usage rate or whatever. He's currently tied for third on the team in usage, though.

It doesn't paint the whole picture, and there are things you can't really quantify analytically, but Rob in the B12 has REALLY struggled by the numbers. Again, there's more to the puzzle but his minutes allocation is hard to argue for objectively without just shutting down any discussion beyond "trust the coaches." That's probably the answer, but what is the point of a sports message board if not to discuss things happening with the team?

Perfectly articulated.

Someone starts a thread about "why is everyone picking on Bob and lay off". Then some (including myself obviously) make an argument for Bob not being Big 12 material and that the staff overuses them. These statements are also backed up by numerous stars and specific, reoccurring failures. If instead of refuting these claims with evidence, or anything other than a single cherry picked star that rates Watson, Bob, and Tre King as the leagues best "defenders", they resort to the 'coach always right while you're just a keyboard hero' schtick.

The purpose of message boards are to discuss teams, players, and coaches. The fact that some could be so easily offended by the suggestion (basically a fact) Bob isn't deserving of 15-20 minutes a game is puzzling. And if they are then maybe they shouldn't be on a message board.

 

[ZRF]

Stats I disagree with are flawed!!!!! Maroon.

Stats? You cherry picked one stat that, when observed with numerous (more telling) stats and the other players it rated so highly, made it's judgment value highly questionable. When I address it, and why I think that singular stat is flawed and should be disregarded, this is the best you can do?

Have fun walking around telling people that Watson, Jones, and King are our best defenders. For the record, I think Jones is mostly okay as a one on one block defender. The problem is how easily exploitable he is virtually everywhere else in the floor.

 

[SwirlyBird]

Stats? You cherry picked one stat that, when observed with numerous (more telling) stats and the other players it rated so highly, made it's judgment value highly questionable. When I address it, and why I think that singular stat is flawed and should be disregarded, this is the best you can do?

Have fun walking around telling people that Watson, Jones, and King are our best defenders. For the record, I think Jones is mostly okay as a one on one block defender. The problem is how easily exploitable he is virtually everywhere else in the floor.

Do people just walk around the street telling random people who the best defenders are on their favorite college basketball team?

 

[ZRF]

Do people just walk around the street telling random people who the best defenders are on their favorite college basketball team?

Given that he used a singular stat to highlight Jones' value I'd say it's more plausible than it otherwise would be.

But to answer directly, that wasn't to be taken that literally.

 

[Clonefan32]

These numbers are easily findable, you just have to look. In B12 play, Rob has a TS of 36% while he doesn't shoot from outside of 5 feet. That is exceptionally poor shooting. He also has a turnover rate 4 times higher than his assist rate.

As others have said, it wouldn't be a problem if he had a low usage rate or whatever. He's currently tied for third on the team in usage, though.

It doesn't paint the whole picture, and there are things you can't really quantify analytically, but Rob in the B12 has REALLY struggled by the numbers. Again, there's more to the puzzle but his minutes allocation is hard to argue for objectively without just shutting down any discussion beyond "trust the coaches." That's probably the answer, but what is the point of a sports message board if not to discuss things happening with the team?

I get a kick out of this because focusing on individual stats in a vacuum doesn't tell the full story. Tre King hadn't played basketball in 2 years. It's unrealistic to expect he steps in and plays 25-30 minutes a game as they work him back into shape and get him up to speed in game situations. Shoon has shown a knack for getting into foul trouble and doesn't do as well on perimeter switches. Jaz has been hurt the last 6 weeks.

I'm not here to argue Rob doesn't leave something to be desired in his output. I'm here to argue it's insane to think TJ isn't being objective in his approach or is playing Rob out of some motivation beyond thinking his minutes are what's best for this team.

 

[madguy30]

These numbers are easily findable, you just have to look. In B12 play, Rob has a TS of 36% while he doesn't shoot from outside of 5 feet. That is exceptionally poor shooting. He also has a turnover rate 4 times higher than his assist rate.

As others have said, it wouldn't be a problem if he had a low usage rate or whatever. He's currently tied for third on the team in usage, though.

It doesn't paint the whole picture, and there are things you can't really quantify analytically, but Rob in the B12 has REALLY struggled by the numbers. Again, there's more to the puzzle but his minutes allocation is hard to argue for objectively without just shutting down any discussion beyond "trust the coaches." That's probably the answer, but what is the point of a sports message board if not to discuss things happening with the team?

Well then we can all just hope the other players that are just supposed to give a spell at the 5 out of their own positions don't keep averaging their amount of fouls/minutes, stay in position on D and don't get tired with the style that ISU plays with to do the whole winning thing.

I'd guess you'll 'dumb' this but I'll continue to trust the coaches and think it's really stupid to target one player when many players display their limitations throughout a game.

 

[cyclonehomer]

I get a kick out of this because focusing on individual stats in a vacuum doesn't tell the full story. Tre King hadn't played basketball in 2 years. It's unrealistic to expect he steps in and plays 25-30 minutes a game as they work him back into shape and get him up to speed in game situations. Shoon has shown a knack for getting into foul trouble and doesn't do as well on perimeter switches. Jaz has been hurt the last 6 weeks.

I'm not here to argue Rob doesn't leave something to be desired in his output. I'm here to argue it's insane to think TJ isn't being objective in his approach or is playing Rob out of some motivation beyond thinking his minutes are what's best for this team.

"Again, there's more to the puzzle but his minutes allocation is hard to argue for objectively without just shutting down any discussion beyond "trust the coaches." That's probably the answer, but what is the point of a sports message board if not to discuss things happening with the team?"

I even admit in there that the answer "shut up and trust the coaches" is probably right. It's just a lame answer and antithetical to what sports message boards are for.

Hell, there were a lot of people who said that to me regarding my concerns with Tom Manning a few years back. Not even close to the same situation, I'm a big believer in TJ now and the future is blindingly bright. I'm in no way calling for anyone's head, I'm very excited to see where things go over the next few years.

It's just something that I (key word, I) believe may be hindering a team that is having an exceptional season overall. Again, analytics don't ever tell the full story, but IMO they are a very valuable source to analyze players and teams. Also, feel free to ignore me, I'm naturally a pessimist and overthink everything.

 

[CyLyte2]

"Again, there's more to the puzzle but his minutes allocation is hard to argue for objectively without just shutting down any discussion beyond "trust the coaches." That's probably the answer, but what is the point of a sports message board if not to discuss things happening with the team?"

I even admit in there that the answer "shut up and trust the coaches" is probably right. It's just a lame answer and antithetical to what sports message boards are for.

Hell, there were a lot of people who said that to me regarding my concerns with Tom Manning a few years back. Not even close to the same situation, I'm a big believer in TJ now and the future is blindingly bright.

It's just something that I (key word, I) believe may be hindering a team that is having an exceptional season overall. Again, analytics don't ever tell the full story, but IMO they are a very valuable source to analyze players and teams.

So let’s be honest about what sports message boards are for. A bunch of keyboard warriors who don’t know **** about **** pretending they are an authority on everything. People like ZRF are miserable in real life so they go on message boards for some kind of personal validation. In reality it’s just all ********.

 

[cyclonehomer]

Well then we can all just hope the other players that are just supposed to give a spell at the 5 out of their own positions don't keep averaging their amount of fouls/minutes, stay in position on D and don't get tired with the style that ISU plays with to do the whole winning thing.

I'd guess you'll 'dumb' this but I'll continue to trust the coaches and think it's really stupid to target one player when many players display their limitations throughout a game.

I guess my overall point would be that there is a large gap between what those limitations amount to on the court. I can't help but to wonder what it looks like if the team was a bit more comfortable going small than asking a guy who, to this point, has really struggled offensively in the B12 to play a high usage role.

Regardless of where I "trust the coaches" enough, it doesn't really matter. They rightfully wouldn't give a single **** about what I think. I'm gonna root for them tonight regardless.

 

[cyclonehomer]

So let’s be honest about what sports message boards are for. A bunch of keyboard warriors who don’t know **** about **** pretending they are an authority on everything. People like ZRF are miserable in real life so they go on message boards for some kind of personal validation. In reality it’s just all ********.

We're all pigs rolling around in **** together.