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97-98 Bulls Documentary (The Last Dance)

BigJCy said:
"Shoot the layup you dumbass" :D

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1990's NBA was still evolving into the brand it is today. Wearing nice suits after the game while drinking Miller Lite beer. o_O
 
JP4CY said:
The gambling/mob rumors when it happened were thick. Huge coverage.
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I think the Jordan gambling "suspension" is in a category with the Duke Lacrosse team. Despite the fact that the rape allegations have been proven false, when you hear "Duke Lacrosse," you still think about the rape allegations. Despite the clear rebuttals by people who knew (and who like to spill secrets), the idea of Jordan being suspended for gambling is still widely held. There were several good rebuttals, such as Stern and the "BS" guy. However, the best one was the reporter who said that Jordan had told him a year earlier that he wanted to retire and play baseball, but he wanted three straight championships (something Bird and Magic didn't have). That is the most Jordan-like thing ever.
 
HFCS said:
Gary Payton was a great defender for his time...but in most eras of NBA he'd have fouled out in 10 minutes playing like that. Ditto for Stockton.

Not saying they weren't great defenders who did everything they could to win, but nobody would ever be allowed to defend Curry, Harden, Durant or LeBron with that much constant contact. It would be a parade to the free throw line for any start he guarded with the same style of defense.

Players like Kobe and Jordan couldn't defend like that because nobody can play like they did on offense constantly running the ball through them and have the energy to be in physical contact on defense 100% of the time. They were great defenders opportunistically. LeBron is the same type of defender. He's incredible on D but opportunistic like any star who dominates the ball on offense has to be.
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I think they need to figure out how to have a balance. They obviously needed to get more freedom of movement, and had to start calling some fouls. Now there are games that are pretty tough to watch due to too many fouls being called and too many FTs. Depends on the teams, the crew and whether it's regular season or playoffs, but there are plenty of games that are in the 120s now that are way less watchable than a 1990s slugfest in the 80s.

Seems to be the same with NFL and MLB. I hate in the NFL that an effective strategy is to have a perfectly covered WR initiate contact and have a QB throw the ball in the area and depend on horribly inconsistent judgement by officials and get a huge spot penalty. Or have lots of games that are glorified 7 on 7 because the defense can't touch WRs or QBs.

Same with MLB. People liked HRs so they have a tiny strike zone, tiny ballparks, and now you have entire lineups of guys willing to watch 7 hittable pitches to try to hit a HR, walk or strike out.

One of the aspects of sports that used to be cool was watching contrasting styles. The rules in all pro sports have largely funneled teams to all be one style because it's really hard to win otherwise.
 
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Cycsk said:
I think the Jordan gambling "suspension" is in a category with the Duke Lacrosse team. Despite the fact that the rape allegations have been proven false, when you hear "Duke Lacrosse," you still think about the rape allegations. Despite the clear rebuttals by people who knew (and who like to spill secrets), the idea of Jordan being suspended for gambling is still widely held. There were several good rebuttals, such as Stern and the "BS" guy. However, the best one was the reporter who said that Jordan had told him a year earlier that he wanted to retire and play baseball, but he wanted three straight championships (something Bird and Magic didn't have). That is the most Jordan-like thing ever.
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The guy who won me over was the "David Stern, the ultimate capitalist" guy. Yeah, I agree that I doubt Stern was going to suspend Jordan for gambling. Stern is definitely the type who would have looked the other way or slapped Jordan on the wrist hard enough to make him knock it off but not hard enough to drive him out of the game.

The NBA was making bank in the 1990s, and Jordan was the cash cow at the center of it. Tons of people made a ton of money off that era, and Stern was one of them. Baseball is bigger than Pete Rose, but as we saw with the TV numbers once Jordan returned, the NBA was really not bigger than Jordan in that particularly halcyon era.

It is a seductive theory, at least, but it falls apart under much scrutiny.
 
CRcyclone6 said:
I should have clarified better. There wasn't enough time on this particular play to kick it for a different shot. It was a pass in and shoot. No way Phil draws that play up, IMO, if Jordan is on the floor. Pippen was an idiot for acting the way he did. Jordan has kicked the ball to Kerr, Paxson, and probably others when there was time and obviously the right play because they were wide open.
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Definitely.

When you look at the current situation that Pippen was in, I just don't recall him as a catch and shoot type of player, whereas Kukoc and Jordan were.

It was said last week or so that Jordan became that much better when he figured out how to let others thrive in the triangle offense, and from then on he literally controlled the tempo of the game.
 
madguy30 said:
If you use it correctly. If MJ made a big deal out of it publicly it would have felt overblown. He let things stew internally and planned tactics on how to do better the next time around.

I think sometimes he just found something too. Larry Bird was like that.
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You can tell he was stewing big time in the bat clip
 
You might not agree, and there are definitely holes, as with anything, but a curious video nonetheless. People tend to romanticize the past quite a bit. Was defense more physical back then, yes, but to say this player would be trash back then or players from back then would totally dominate today doesn't hold a ton of water.

I don't think people think about the illegal defense thing enough when talking about basketball across these last few eras. That is a huge shift right there and why the 3 ball has become so prolific. The one thing that is true is that superstars could play well in any era....

 
CychiatricWard said:
You might not agree, and there are definitely holes, as with anything, but a curious video nonetheless. People tend to romanticize the past quite a bit. Was defense more physical back then, yes, but to say this player would be trash back then or players from back then would totally dominate today doesn't hold a ton of water.

I don't think people think about the illegal defense thing enough when talking about basketball across these last few eras. That is a huge shift right there and why the 3 ball has become so prolific. The one thing that is true is that superstars could play well in any era....

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I think the argument on illegal defense is really the strong point here. The hand checking was a bit murky from the video, and I remember Jordan and others using forearms to check even if hands weren't allowed. Personally, I hate playing against a hand-checker.

Anyone who says the stars of today wouldn't make it in the 90s is flat out wrong, but every era has/had its own challenges and players adapted to those challenges. Not sure why we can't just enjoy the bball from every era.
 
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LindenCy said:
I think the argument on illegal defense is really the strong point here. The hand checking was a bit murky from the video, and I remember Jordan and others using forearms to check even if hands weren't allowed. Personally, I hate playing against a hand-checker.

Anyone who says the stars of today wouldn't make it in the 90s is flat out wrong, but every era has/had its own challenges and players adapted to those challenges. Not sure why we can't just enjoy the bball from every era.
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I hate the comparing of eras in any sport, honestly. It's futile. I love basketball the most, and love watching NBA basketball. I loved it as a kid in the 90's, I loved it even when it kinda sucked in the early 00's, and I love it now. The game has changed so much over the years and it's fun to see how the players adapt and change.

I also hate comparing players, for the most part, although I will get into it from time to time. I love all the good ones. I don't have this obsession with MJ that blinds me from thinking other players can be on his level. Lebron is amazing, KD/Harden/Curry are all amazing. Just love basketball everyone, lol.
 
Sigmapolis said:
The guy who won me over was the "David Stern, the ultimate capitalist" guy. Yeah, I agree that I doubt Stern was going to suspend Jordan for gambling. Stern is definitely the type who would have looked the other way or slapped Jordan on the wrist hard enough to make him knock it off but not hard enough to drive him out of the game.

The NBA was making bank in the 1990s, and Jordan was the cash cow at the center of it. Tons of people made a ton of money off that era, and Stern was one of them. Baseball is bigger than Pete Rose, but as we saw with the TV numbers once Jordan returned, the NBA was really not bigger than Jordan in that particularly halcyon era.

It is a seductive theory, at least, but it falls apart under much scrutiny.
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Jordan could've murdered puppies on live TV and Stern wasn't suspending him.
 
Jordan would dominate today's NBA. No, Jordan wouldn't be allowed to play D like he did in the 90's, but he would still be one of the best, if not the best defensive players in the league. You don't think a person like Jordan would adapt? Did you see him running wind sprints at the end of episode 7? The man was a cyborg. Imagine if he didn't drink and smoke cigars while he was playing. LOL... .Now, picture Jordan's offensive game with today's defensive style. Yikes.
 
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