What is CPR's Philosophy on Field Goal Kickers?

[tazclone]

No, but I was perchance at the Missouri game and I was at the KU game, both of which were relatively easy field goals that cost us shots at the Big 12 title game.

Dude, you seriously aren't going to argue that Shaggy was a good kicker with me are you? I would consider the Iowa game kick to be an anomaly. As a general rule, if the kick was a high pressure kick, he missed it. Good kickers do not miss kicks like the one he missed against Missouri -ever.

Look at Shaggy's FG% inside of 40 yards and then look at it over 40 yards. The staff was absolutely idiotic for asking Shaggy to kick over a 40 yard field goal in that situation. Same for the Kansas game. Seriously, you get the ball at the 25 and you kicker is forced to kick a 45 yard field goal?
Of course you might be talking about the 24 yarder the year before. Never mind that he hadn't even been on the team when fall practice started that year and we had 1st and goal at the three and couldn't win.

 

[HILLCYD]

Although directly or indirectly - missed field goals 100% did affect the result on Sat.

If that second kick goes through and the score is 7-6, i can say with 100% certainty that Mizzou does not try a fake punt on their own side of the field. If it failed that would have left isu in a position of taking the lead late in the fourth quarter with a field goal.

Not to mention the huge-collective sigh that exhausted Jack Trice on both misses....

That my friend is called losing the BIG MO!!!!

So to refute your comments - missing those two field goals played a bigger role in the loss then the score.....

I respect your opinion, but that offense was going to do nothing regardless of the field goals. Receivers couldn't catch and God knows Tiller can't throw.

 

[cyhiphopp]

I respect your opinion, but that offense was going to do nothing regardless of the field goals. Receivers couldn't catch and God knows Tiller can't throw.

Sorry, but momentum has a LOT to do with it. If the score is 7-6 then it is highly possible that the QB and receivers can make more plays without forcing the issue. That 0 on the scoreboard has an affect on you. It makes you feel like you HAVE to make a play. It also makes the other players lose a little faith in their kicker.

7-6 could have ended up resulting in a totally different ball game.

 

[tulsacyfan]

Shaggy was golden inside of 40 yards. Not good outside of 40 yards. It was ridiculous that we asked him to win games for us and gave up moving the ball once we got within a 45 yard field goal forcing him into 40+ yard field goals. If you gave him a 30 yard field goal he would drill it every single time.

As for the OP, Rhoads was recruiting the number 3 ranked kicker last year in Will Hagerup. The kid chose Michigan. That should tell you what kind of emphasis he puts on kickers. Mahoney was solid this year until we asked him to consistently kick 45+ yard field goals. Then his confidence was shaken and the snaps were crap. Kicking is mental and once Mahoney lost a little confidence and couldn't count on the snap, he started missing.

Hey Tazclone - That is good information. Glad to hear that.

I agree on giving up on moving the ball and settling for long field goals - given that we have wide agreement in this thread that A.) It is so hard to find good field kickers and that B.) field goal kicking is difficult to master, that is why it drives me insane that we attempt so many FG's over 40+ yards.

I think sometimes coaches want to show their kids that they have confidence in them to make the kick (i.e. McCarney with Shaggy). I just don't think that is smart football.

I guess from a strategic standpoint I just don't like seeing a coaching staff asking marginal kickers to make long field goals; A.) It kills momentum B.) It kills the confidence of the kicker and C.) It puts the defense in tough spots

 

[HILLCYD]

Sorry, but momentum has a LOT to do with it. If the score is 7-6 then it is highly possible that the QB and receivers can make more plays without forcing the issue. That 0 on the scoreboard has an affect on you. It makes you feel like you HAVE to make a play. It also makes the other players lose a little faith in their kicker.

7-6 could have ended up resulting in a totally different ball game.

Not discounting momentum, just saying field goals or not, we don't win that game. My theory is just as plausable as your momentum theory.

If Tiller is the solution at QB next year, sign up for 4-5 wins again.

 

[weR138]

If the OP is a question of;

A. Develop a non-scholarship kicker

or

B. Put a talented HS kicker on scholarship

I think clearly we need to be seeking out HS prodigies and offering scholarships. At a program like ours; if special teams isn't a big asset - it's a big detriment. We'll probably never amass the talent to negate poor kicking/punting.

 

[simply1]

I just want consistent inside of 40, got to have those almost every single time. Grant started off that way and I got all warm and cozy from it, but things certainly changed there. I'm always optimistic he'll get back in a groove, but definitely not looking that way now.

I wouldn't mind a nebbie setup with a kickoff specialist and a guy with not necessarily the leg of henery, but with accuracy within a certain range. We seem to have our punter solidified for the next few years with Kirby, time to spend something on a kicker.

 

[tazclone]

I just want consistent inside of 40, got to have those almost every single time. Grant started off that way and I got all warm and cozy from it, but things certainly changed there. I'm always optimistic he'll get back in a groove, but definitely not looking that way now.

I wouldn't mind a nebbie setup with a kickoff specialist and a guy with not necessarily the leg of henery, but with accuracy within a certain range. We seem to have our punter solidified for the next few years with Kirby, time to spend something on a kicker.

We had that with Shaggy until is senior year and that was not good enough because our staff did not realize that Shaggy was limited to 40 yards. I think sometimes OCs see a kid's longest field goal and use that. "Oh Mahoney can kick it 50 yards so we are good". No put the damn ball within a 40 yard field goal and your % increases greatly! Mahoney was golden inside 40 yards until we asked him to consistently kick over 40. Now the long snapper, holder and kicker have more pressure as it is a lower kick. That and the swirling wind in Jack Tice make them difficult. If you notice our long snaps were not great all year and I think that affected Mahoney. I imagine he hesitated on a lot of field goals giving a split second more for the catch and place.
On another note, I once saw that statistically, jack Trice was one of the toughest stadiums in which to kick.

 

[tazclone]

BTW- If you missed it CPR offered and recruited this kid last year

Will Hagerup - Yahoo! Sports

Notice his position rank of #3. That would be the #3 ranked kicker although It hink they wanted him as a punter and he is a punter. Either way it shows the where the staff ranks special teams.

 

[simply1]

I think a defensive minded coach will always value at least a punter/kick off person just from a field position perspective. Mahoney's got a big leg, and I would definitely love it if the unit as a whole could be consistent inside the 40 with an occasional long kick if necessary, ie the nebraska game. I assume they know what his issue is, ie something in mechanics that happens during stress or something, but it sure seems like it should be correctable even if difficult to correct.

 

[Aclone]

You guys who think that Shaggy was a good kicker are delusional. The heck with a forty yard range--Mac was reluctant to try anything outside of 25, and the results showed. he was a nice PAT kicker, and that was about it.

As far as Mahoney--here are his stats from cyclones.com, if I can get them to pate right (probably not):

FIELD GOALS Made-Att Pct 01-19 20-29 30-39 40-49 50-99 Long Blkd Mahoney,Grant 8-17 47.1 0-0 1-2 3-4 3-6 1-5 57 0

Four of his misses were from beyond fifty. He was 3-6 from 40-49, and 1-2 from 20-29. i think he had one bad game--and you guys are calling for his head? Get real! At the start of the season, CPR called him " as good as any kicker in the conference". a slump? Probably--and he has nine months to work out the kinks.

Mac had a miserable time with kickers. He'd sign a good one--they would get hurt, right down to Mahoski, who blew out a knee playing soccer a couple of weeks after signing.

 

[VeloClone]

To answer the question in the thread title, I think his philosophy is that he damned well better be able to run the option and make somebody miss!

:wink:

This is partly a joke, but there is also some truth to it. Coach doesn't just think of them as kickers, but as football players. I think that sometimes gets lost and we think they can only do one thing. If you think of all the players as football players first and a certain position second, they might just surprise themselves as to what they are capable of doing.

 

[Judoka]

Kicker and longsnapper (and to a lesser extent the holder) are only noticed when they screw up. Its an insanely high pressure position to be in and is almost entirely mental, which is why one bad snap or missed chip[ shot can quickly snowball into a horrible season on special teams.

I'm sure Mahoney will be spending a good chunk of his winter in Bergstrom and on the practice field working on his accuracy and getting his confidence back. I don't expect him to be an All-American or anything, but he'll do better next year. Otherwise I say let Vanderkamp take it over. He already is our best QB.

 

[Cyclonepride]

I think CPR's philosophy on field goal kickers is to have them make it.

 

[tulsacyfan]

You guys who think that Shaggy was a good kicker are delusional. The heck with a forty yard range--Mac was reluctant to try anything outside of 25, and the results showed. he was a nice PAT kicker, and that was about it.

As far as Mahoney--here are his stats from cyclones.com, if I can get them to pate right (probably not):

FIELD GOALS Made-Att Pct 01-19 20-29 30-39 40-49 50-99 Long Blkd Mahoney,Grant 8-17 47.1 0-0 1-2 3-4 3-6 1-5 57 0

Four of his misses were from beyond fifty. He was 3-6 from 40-49, and 1-2 from 20-29. i think he had one bad game--and you guys are calling for his head? Get real! At the start of the season, CPR called him " as good as any kicker in the conference". a slump? Probably--and he has nine months to work out the kinks.

Mac had a miserable time with kickers. He'd sign a good one--they would get hurt, right down to Mahoski, who blew out a knee playing soccer a couple of weeks after signing.

I sure didn't mean to imply that I was calling for Mahoney's head. Like I said, I think he is probably about the best we have had from the Mac era to now. Some of the other posters certainly have a different memor of Shaggy than I do. The kick against Mizzouri was close to PAT distance.

Bottom line for me, is that I don't think we have had a kicker in this timeframe that I would trust outside of 40 yards. To me, those are kicks that should only be attempted out of desperation - i.e. ticks left on the clock to win the game or tie. Earlier in the game we need to be trying to pin them deep and put our defense in positions to succeed.

 

[tazclone]

You guys who think that Shaggy was a good kicker are delusional. The heck with a forty yard range--Mac was reluctant to try anything outside of 25, and the results showed. he was a nice PAT kicker, and that was about it.

As far as Mahoney--here are his stats from cyclones.com, if I can get them to pate right (probably not):

FIELD GOALS Made-Att Pct 01-19 20-29 30-39 40-49 50-99 Long Blkd Mahoney,Grant 8-17 47.1 0-0 1-2 3-4 3-6 1-5 57 0

Four of his misses were from beyond fifty. He was 3-6 from 40-49, and 1-2 from 20-29. i think he had one bad game--and you guys are calling for his head? Get real! At the start of the season, CPR called him " as good as any kicker in the conference". a slump? Probably--and he has nine months to work out the kinks.

Mac had a miserable time with kickers. He'd sign a good one--they would get hurt, right down to Mahoski, who blew out a knee playing soccer a couple of weeks after signing.

Shaggy was something like 85-90% inside of 40 yards until his senior year. I remember looking at stats after his Jr year and he had a higher FG% than any of the Lou Groza finalists inside of 40 yards. chizdick changed up some of his mechanics in order to get some added yardage and his SR year he missed more due to that. FWIW- Alex Henery is one of the best kickers and he has a career FG% of 89%. Shaggy was around 70% and closer to 76% before chizdick messed him up. Not great but average to above average. Under forty he was above average
I am not saying he was a great kicker. He had his limitations but if you think he wasn't good inside of 40, you are a little misguided.

BTW- 100% on extra points. Not many can say that (not even Henery), even the best kickers in the game.

Again not saying he was great but he is better than most give him credit for and he is far better than Mahoney has been but I don't hink anyone is calling for Mahoney's head. As a matter of fact, most people claim he is far, far better than Shaggy even though his stats do not back it up. even inside 40 yards he is 75%. Mahoney is less than 50% beyond 40 yards. It is nice to have a guy with a strong leg but if he misses, you completely flip field position. I don't fault Mahoney and I actually wish the staff wouldn't have screwed up his confidence by having him kick so many long field goals.

 

[Clone5]

I only noticed this myself a couple of times but from what I've read on here and heard people say, we had a lot of trouble with the snaps/holds and timing on field goals this year. Hopefully this is fine by the start of next year.

 

[Tre4ISU]

The thing is with Mahoney, his kicks usually aren't ugly, he just misses. For that reason I continue to have confidence in his ability. I don't know why he has been missing. I mean with Culbertson, though it doesn't matter, his makes were ugly and his misses were as well. Mahoney kicks a good looking ball. Thats what flusters me.

Also, I think it was Texas who has four scholarship kickers and I believe 3 punters on schollies as well. I thought that was weird.

 

[VeloClone]

I watched Grant line one up on Saturday and I "knew" he was going to miss it left. Sure enough he did. I swear he didn't take the same side steps he usually does. I can't say for sure but it seemed like he took the normal first side step then one that was about a third the size of what he normally takes. He was closer to directly behind the ball at the snap so he pulled it wide left when he came around it.

I would have to look at more of his kicks to know if he always does it that way and I haven't noticed or if he really did line it up differently.

 

[tazclone]

I sure didn't mean to imply that I was calling for Mahoney's head. Like I said, I think he is probably about the best we have had from the Mac era to now. Some of the other posters certainly have a different memor of Shaggy than I do. The kick against Mizzouri was close to PAT distance.

Bottom line for me, is that I don't think we have had a kicker in this timeframe that I would trust outside of 40 yards. To me, those are kicks that should only be attempted out of desperation - i.e. ticks left on the clock to win the game or tie. Earlier in the game we need to be trying to pin them deep and put our defense in positions to succeed.

Agree 100% and the same could be said for 90% of college teams. Finding a kicker that is great beyond 40 yards is difficult. Stretch that to 45+ and it is even worse. Without looking I would say most of Mahoney's kicks over 40 were closer to the 45+ range. I think if people stopped and looked around, they would notice very few kickers are consistent beyond 40/45 yards