Time for Two Posts?

Discussion in 'Mens Basketball' started by Chitowncy, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. Chitowncy

    Chitowncy Well-Known Member

    Jan 14, 2009
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    I'm curious if others believe its time to try two posts in the game at the same time.

    To this point, we haven't really seen Jacobson and Lard or Jacobson and Young playing at the same time and I'm really curious to see what we'd play like. I felt like Baylor would have been an excellent situation to try it with Jacobson and Lard in the first half. Baylor big guy (Clark) was playing quite physically with Jacobson and I thought the better defensive match-up would have been Lard vs him or Young vs him and let Jacobson play the 4. We know Jacobson can stretch the floor out to nearly the 3 point line on O, so I'm just curious why we haven't seen it yet against the right match-ups (like Baylor would have been in my opinion).

    Plus, we have 3 Big XII quality posts when everyone's healthy in Lard, Jacobson and Young. I'd like to see Young and Lard get a few more minutes. Obviously, Lard may be out against K State, but if he comes back as expected, I'd like to see us finally try a bigger lineup. It would help on the boards as well. Have others been waiting to see what we look like with two bigs in?
     
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  2. MartyFine

    MartyFine Well-Known Member

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    Makes ISU much less efficient and effective on the offensive end.
     
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  3. Tre4ISU

    Tre4ISU Well-Known Member

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    No. Sometimes one is too many.
     
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  4. Chitowncy

    Chitowncy Well-Known Member

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    Possibly. I think it mostly depends on the other team's personnel though. It could make us better against the right personnel.

    I trust Prohm, but sometimes you don't know until you try it in a game situation.... I'd like to see it. I do think with the way we play, the 4 will almost always have to be Jacobson though.
     
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  5. Chitowncy

    Chitowncy Well-Known Member

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    I agree that sometimes one is too many. I'm not advocating for an overhaul to have a 2 post lineup be our primary lineup. I think 2 posts needs to be tried though.
     
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  6. moores2

    moores2 Member

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    I think the issue that we run into with 2 posts is the ball screens on defense. When 1-4 are guards we can switch everything, which makes it tough for offenses to create off of ball screens. Even with 1 post, these ball screens can create bad matchups. Increase the number of post players increases our issues with ball screen defense.
     
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  7. Malone

    Malone Well-Known Member

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    Haven't been wanting to see two bigs at all. Basketball has moved away from the traditional model. Baylor didn't even have two bigs in at the same time. And that's Baylor - almost always big and beefy up front. Why would we have two bigs if not needed?
     
  8. JM4CY

    JM4CY Well-Known Member

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    No. Bad idea.
     
  9. Sigmapolis

    Sigmapolis Well-Known Member
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    We tried two traditional big men last year and it did not work.

    It was not that Solomon and Cameron are individually bad players -- they just got circles run around them given one of them had to guard a wing in the Big 12.

    One big and switch everything on the perimeter is how basketball works in 2019.
     
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  10. WhatchaGonnaDo

    WhatchaGonnaDo Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Being able to switch 1-4 against KU was huge.
     
  11. Chitowncy

    Chitowncy Well-Known Member

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    I agree that basketball has moved away from the more structured offenses of the past. There are few teams with a motion offense like a 3-2 motion offense or the Princeton-based sets, or FLEX offense, but that's often precisely the time to change again and take advantage of others' unfamiliarity. Turn their strengths into weaknesses.

    Anyway, I'm not advocating for that - to change our whole offense - as Prohm has recruited these players to play a pick and roll and pick and pop offense with less structure, but I do think we need to try two Bigs against the right teams and also against teams that conventionally may look like bad matchups. A couple minutes here or there to see if it's working can throw the other team off as well.

    That's one complaint I have with Prohm is that he doesn't switch defenses much even when down or out of controlled situations. I would like us to come out of a timeout once to spring a different defense (like a 1-3-1 or 2-3 zone) on the other team unexpectedly. It is amazing how often that works and throws another team off (particularly at the college level and particularly when the shot clock is already down a little). I would just like to see some more shrewd moves like that out of the coaching staff.
     
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  12. isufbcurt

    isufbcurt Well-Known Member

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    Remember with KU went 2 bigs and we stayed small, yeah we increased out lead to 20.

    Small ball
     
  13. Chitowncy

    Chitowncy Well-Known Member

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    #13 Chitowncy, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    I agree generally. But, the posters so far seem to be missing my point that it should be tried against the right teams and in limited situations in almost every game. Emphasis on try.

    Also, look at Texas Tech, for example. There are teams like that that continue to run a motion offense with curls, stacks and they start their offense with the traditional big man screen down on the guard at the block in many cases who pops to the three point line. They have a lot of sets where they don't do many on ball screens. I played small college ball, I see it with teams like that and your general point that it would be hard to switch everything on the perimeter is well taken if the other team has a guard or small forward type who can handle the ball playing the 4, but if not, then the ability to switch on screens is not as important. What you and others seem to be missing is that there are teams like Tech that don't rely on ball screens as much and don't have the same personnel.

    Then again, maybe you realize that and still think "no" 100% of the time. To flat out say "no" as seems to be the consensus so far (interesting) is narrow-minded and not carefully analyzing each team we're playing and that team's personnel and sets.
     
  14. CycloneVet

    CycloneVet Well-Known Member

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    I may agree with you if our starting 4 guard lineup wasnt so big. 6 4, 6 6, 6 6, 6 5. It's very versatile in their ability to switch on d. However they need to board better.
     
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  15. Malone

    Malone Well-Known Member

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    In theory, I agree with most of this. If the other team plays big or crashes offensive glass, playing two bigs could be something you at least spend a few minutes looking at. Depends on matchups as well. With that said, by and large, most teams at the p5 level would victimize a team using two bigs - particularly our bigs. None of Jacobson, Solo or Lard have the lateral ability to stick with athletic 4s or 3s.

    As for defense, KenPom has us as the 25th best defense in the country and that significantly outperforms our talent level.

    My biggest Prohm complaint is out-of-timeout plays. That's pretty ticky-tack though. I've been happy with the defensive progress.
     
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  16. CycloneErik

    CycloneErik Well-Known Member

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    So, we have a proven concept that fits our roster, but we should try something that our guys don't fit well just to see how it goes.

    Herman Edwards right now is losing his mind.
     
  17. Chitowncy

    Chitowncy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you often try things in the right situations when things aren't going as well to mix it up. Sometimes its just to motivate or reinvigorate players. I've played sports on many levels and there are many reasons to mix things up even if your general and typical scheme works just fine. Was it a "proven concept" when Clark was eating us up downlow with just Jacobson covering him. Both Jacobson and Lard can score downlow as well when Baylor basically had a 1 forward set in for a good period of time. It could have led to an advantage on the offensive end for us.

    Clearly I'm in the minority among the basketball experts who played at the college level such as yourself here. Interesting to get the feedback.
     
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  18. CycloneErik

    CycloneErik Well-Known Member

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    Oh, we're doing the "I played so I post on the Internet" thing. That's always solid.
    I suppose we could have sent Lard out there in his boot. He probably would have excelled through the pain.

    Sometimes just trying something is plain stupid in any managerial setting. This sounds more and more like one of those.
     
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  19. heitclone

    heitclone Well-Known Member

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    Did Baylor play two posts?
     
  20. rochclone

    rochclone Well-Known Member

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    I hope I never seen two post players on the court again for Iowa State. Limits are ability to defend the pick and roll by switching and effects the necessary defensive rotations.

    On the offensive end we were just abysmal when we had Cam and Solomon on the floor at the same time.
     

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