Pearl Harbor 80th Anniversary

[CycloneRulzzz]

Today is the 80th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The CBS national show had a pretty good piece about it this morning. In 2008 I was on trip to Hawaii and to this day getting the opportunity to visit the Arizona memorial is one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had. My trip was at this time of year so it really made it even more powerful.

 

[MeanDean]

Today is the 80th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The CBS national show had a pretty good piece about it this morning. In 2008 I was on trip to Hawaii and to this day getting the opportunity to visit the Arizona memorial is one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had. My trip was at this time of year so it really made it even more powerful.

I was in Hawaii with my brother and had the Arizona tour booked. Unfortunately I had a severe digestive reaction to my all you can eat breakfast buffet and spent the time in the bathroom on the dock while he went on the tour.

I've read several great books on the attack a couple decades ago (maybe it was around the 50th anniversary so better make that 3 decades) and there are/were some amazing stories.

 

[Drew0311]

I have been to Pearl numerous times and it's never not sobering. My grandpa was stationed at Pearl. So when I was in the Corps and in Hawaii I went several times. Never seen so many grown men cry at the same time. I am talking young hard core Marines. If you ever go to Hawaii as an American you should go do the tour.

 

[VeloClone]

It is sad to think that all of our Pearl veterans are in their 100's or very close to it. It won't be long and we will have virtually none left.

 

[VeloClone]

Make sure you fly your flag today.

 

[DevilDog]

American & Marine Corps flag fly everyday I'm on this earth.

 

[clone4sure]

I went to visit the Battleship Arizona back in 1987. I was there when a group of WWII Veterans lit a candle in a wreath, and floated it out to sea. very touching moment when these men stood up and saluted their fallen brothers.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

I remember my grandmother always tearing up while reading to us kids about this day.

Also on our honeymoon we went on the tour, there were only 12 in the bus......and when the tour guide ask if anyone had been here before an older Japanese gentlemen in the front raised his hand. The guide ask him when.....and he said when they bombed it. Needless to say there was a collective sort of gasp.......but you could tell he wasn't there for a victory dance and more like a I'm sorry tour because he bowed his head after he said it.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Given this thread is probably populated by the history-inclined, I thought I'd share this...

The Hawaiian Invasion, and Other Nonsense

Hypothetical Japanese invasion (instead of just a carrier raid) of Hawaii on December 7 and/or what Japan's strategic next steps might have been with a successful Battle of Midway for the Kidō Butai.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

Given this thread is probably populated by the history-inclined, I thought I'd share this...

The Hawaiian Invasion, and Other Nonsense

Hypothetical Japanese invasion (instead of just a carrier raid) of Hawaii on December 7 and/or what Japan's strategic next steps might have been with a successful Battle of Midway for the Kidō Butai.

IMO as bad as this day was 80 years ago.......had they defeated us at Midway the Hawaiian Islands were finished and that would have been another Okinawa type of battle to get them out.

 

[Sigmapolis]

IMO as bad as this day was 80 years ago.......had they defeated us at Midway the Hawaiian Islands were finished and that would have been another Okinawa type of battle to get them out.

I disagree with this.

Holding Midway wasn't holding an asset that made Hawaii (or specifically Oahu) untenable.

Midway isn't much of a base -- very small, no freshwater -- and is 1,300 miles from Oahu. That *is* technically within range of Japanese fighters and strike aircraft, but only at the ragged edges of it.

Oahu would have been HEAVILY fortified with adequate manpower, stocked with provisions, and protected by ample quantities of land-based aircraft and submarines if a Japanese invasion force... crawling slowly instead of sprinting like a carrier raid... tried to approach. Okinawa isn't a bad analogy, but not in the way you meant it. Imagine the Japanese attacking Okinawa in 1942 with significantly fewer resources, far less experience with amphibious operations, and infinitely inferior logistics to the U.S. in April 1945.

Even with all that going for the U.S. invasion, it was still a bear that took almost three months.

The point of Midway to the Japanese was never step one of a campaign on Hawaii. The point was to draw the American carriers out to destroy them to (1.) no more raiding the Home Islands tomfoolery and (2.) to give the Japanese much greater strategic flexibility in the *South* Pacific, not the *Central* Pacific, if now that they no longer had to worry about Coral Sea-que interruptions of their plans by U.S. carrier raids.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Given this thread is probably populated by the history-inclined, I thought I'd share this...

The Hawaiian Invasion, and Other Nonsense

Hypothetical Japanese invasion (instead of just a carrier raid) of Hawaii on December 7 and/or what Japan's strategic next steps might have been with a successful Battle of Midway for the Kidō Butai.

On a related note, you my friend, as well as anyone else who enjoys history, might enjoy an author by the name of Harry Turtledove who specializes in writing alternative historical fiction; i.e. what if the South won the Civil War? He wrote a couple of pretty good books about what a successful Japanese invasion/occupation of the Hawaiian Islands after Pearl Harbor might have looked like.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

I disagree with this.

Holding Midway wasn't holding an asset that made Hawaii (or specifically Oahu) untenable.

Midway isn't much of a base -- very small, no freshwater -- and is 1,300 miles from Oahu. That *is* technically within range of Japanese fighters and strike aircraft, but only at the ragged edges of it.

Oahu would have been HEAVILY fortified with adequate manpower, stocked with provisions, and protected by ample quantities of land-based aircraft and submarines if a Japanese invasion force... crawling slowly instead of sprinting like a carrier raid... tried to approach. Okinawa isn't a bad analogy, but not in the way you meant it. Imagine the Japanese attacking Okinawa in 1942 with significantly fewer resources, far less experience with amphibious operations, and infinitely inferior logistics to the U.S. in April 1945.

Even with all that going for the U.S. invasion, it was still a bear that took almost three months.

The point of Midway to the Japanese was never step one of a campaign on Hawaii. The point was to draw the American carriers out to destroy them to (1.) no more raiding the Home Islands tomfoolery and (2.) to give the Japanese much greater strategic flexibility in the *South* Pacific, not the *Central* Pacific, if now that they no longer had to worry about Coral Sea-que interruptions of their plans by U.S. carrier raids.

Your last paragraph (1) is exactly my point. You destroy the carriers then at that time raiding the Islands would have been just a formality on how not if. Hawaii didn't have adequate defenses to stop the half dozen Japanese carriers let alone the pounding from the Yamamoto's 18" guns and other ships. And I won't even talk of the invasion forces. I doubt they start with Oahu and an "embargo" for the lack of a better term would have isolated the islands and at that time America had no answer. The islands were screwed and when we finally had built up our forces we would have been forced to get them out like ticks on a dog. Just like the islands.

 

[Sigmapolis]

On a related note, you my friend, as well as anyone else who enjoys history, might enjoy an author by the name of Harry Turtledove who specializes in writing alternative historical fiction; i.e. what if the South won the Civil War? He wrote a couple of pretty good books about what a successful Japanese invasion/occupation of the Hawaiian Islands after Pearl Harbor might have looked like.

I'm familiar with that particular author and the genre as a whole. I try not to wade too deeply into it. Counterfactuals are fun but shouldn't be the main foundation of historical scholarship.

I'm skeptical of Japan invading even on December 7. Put simply --

-- A carrier raid is different than bring a slow-moving invasion force. A carrier force and its escorts can make military speeds; an invasion force has to crawl along at the speed of civilian cargo ships. This greatly increases the risk of the U.S. tripping over the Japanese fleet and preparing accordingly.

No massive surprise on the morning of December 7th and that battle goes very differently. The U.S. had ample AAA assets (on land and on the ships in port) at Pearl Harbor as well as land-based aircraft (either USAAC or carrier airwings that could fly off runways in a pinch). The second Pearl Harbor raid had some terrifying loss rates for Japanese aircraft, and that was after only a few hours of chaotic response.

Imagine coming into an opponent who knows you're coming as is pissed about it instead.

-- Dedicating infantry and shipping assets towards Oahu means compromising Japan's offensives in the South Pacific towards needed natural resources and/or securing the supply lanes protecting the route from what is now Indonesia back to the Home Islands. Would you really invade Hawaii at the expense of either the Philippines or Malaysia -- the upshot of this being you now have a British or American redoubt on the flank of the shipping lanes that you need to secure to keep your petroleum supply safe?

It just doesn't work. Too risky, gains you little, and costs you everything the war was about for Japan.

 

[KnappShack]

Today is the 80th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The CBS national show had a pretty good piece about it this morning. In 2008 I was on trip to Hawaii and to this day getting the opportunity to visit the Arizona memorial is one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had. My trip was at this time of year so it really made it even more powerful.

I've told the story before but when I went to the Arizona Memorial I removed my hat before I stepped in.

An older Navy vet grabbed my arm and thanked me. To many it's a view of the past or a tourist attraction.

To others it's a grave for fallen comrades

 

[cyfanatic]

Off topic a little bit but...not only is the Arizona Memorial a must-see in Oahu...the Punchbowl Crater (National Cemetary of the Pacific) ranks right there with it!

VA.gov | Veterans Affairs

Apply for and manage the VA benefits and services you’ve earned as a Veteran, Servicemember, or family member—like health care, disability, education, and more.

www.cem.va.gov

 

[isucy86]

Tom Brokow popularized the term Greatest Generation and I am not sure that truly describes people that lived during that era. My dad was born in 1927 and it is just in the last few years that I have heard a lot of the stories of his youth.

He was a freshman in HS when Pearl Harbor occurred, and his older brother was on the West Virginia that sank at Pearl Harbor. He recalls listening to reports on the radio of the bombing with his mom & older sister. Communications aren't what they are today, and they didn't know for over 3 months that his older brother survived the bombing. Pearl Harbor was something his brother never talked about.

I sometimes put myself in my dad's shoes and it would have been other worldly to spend my 4 high school years during a World War with the prospect as soon as I turn 18, I would enlist in the military.

Not only did war mark the lives of the Greatest Generation, but those fighting men & women also survived the Great Depression. My dad grew up in a Mississippi River town and recalls the family eating carp stuffed with dressing for Thanksgiving. That was a treat! Or visiting his uncles farm as a kid and climbing barn rafters to catch Pigeon squabs for family dinners.

It truly was an Amazing Generation.

 

[ISUcyclones11]

Given this thread is probably populated by the history-inclined, I thought I'd share this...

The Hawaiian Invasion, and Other Nonsense

Hypothetical Japanese invasion (instead of just a carrier raid) of Hawaii on December 7 and/or what Japan's strategic next steps might have been with a successful Battle of Midway for the Kidō Butai.

I do believe they printed money stamped specifically for Hawaii so they could nullify it in case of a successful Japanese invasion.

 

[Die4Cy]

I've told the story before but when I went to the Arizona Memorial I removed my hat before I stepped in.

An older Navy vet grabbed my arm and thanked me. To many it's a view of the past or a tourist attraction.

To others it's a grave for fallen comrades

I think the greatest testament to that place, is that many survivors of the attack were returned there for burial at the time of their deaths. There are only two survivors left today, I think we were told.

I was there last month. Only about half the visitors took the audio tour, which included first person accounts of the men who survived at specific points of the tour. Those that didn't really missed out.

 

[VeloClone]

I do believe they printed money stamped specifically for Hawaii so they could nullify it in case of a successful Japanese invasion.

This is true.