***Official 2021 Vikings***

BCClone

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JM4CY

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That has to be a pseudo account, or MN may be screwed. That account is extremely active with very goofy stuff.
Get your Packer ass out of here. We excel at epically messing things up and are likely screwed regardless of some social media account, thank you very much.
 
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AuH2O

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Mostly looking at Expected Points Added, which is a pretty key indicator in most analytical circles & weighs plays situationally vs just raw numbers. His last year as a starter (the year he threw 30 picks, which admittedly is a major issue!) he was top 10 in that measure.

I guess my main argument is that we haven't been a playoff team 3 out of the 4 years Kirk has been here. He's clearly not good enough (despite what the box score says) to overcome a poor defense & bad o-line like the truly elite QBs do. And, if you keep him at his current cap hit, there's almost no path to having a better defense or o-line as you'll have to cut quality starters just to get under the cap. So I just don't see a ton of downside in moving on from him.

I have no problem moving on from Kirk. I just think moving on then getting a replacement like a Winston, you are just getting worse at the QB spot (how much is debatable), having some cap impact, but probably not enough to offset your downgrade at QB, and you pretty much end up in the same middling purgatory where you're going to be picking in the teens or low twenties.
 
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Mr Janny

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I have no problem moving on from Kirk. I just think moving on then getting a replacement like a Winston, you are just getting worse at the QB spot (how much is debatable), having some cap impact, but probably not enough to offset your downgrade at QB, and you pretty much end up in the same middling purgatory where you're going to be picking in the teens or low twenties.
This. If they're dumping Kirk, then they should let Mond have the reins. Ideally you don't want any more than 5 wins, maybe 6, in that scenario. Any more than that and you're out of the top 10 and you might as well have kept Cousins and try to plug the holes on the defense.
 
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PSYclone22

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This. If they're dumping Kirk, then they should let Mond have the reins. Ideally you don't want any more than 5 wins, maybe 6, in that scenario. Any more than that and you're out of the top 10 and you might as well have kept Cousins and try to plug the holes on the defense.
I would want 14 wins.
 

cyfan92

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Saw this as an excuse to keep Cousins. This doesn't show his QBR (ESPN stat) is 15th in the league.

Kirk is a play it safe QB. He FEATS in garbage time which inflates his stats. No he is not the sole reason for Vikings underperformance. But he is a LARGE reason why.

Not fixing the interior line for Kirk was Zimm and Rick's downfall.

Maybe another team will trade a 1 if they have a good line and are in desperate need of a QB... Browns, Philly, Back to Washington?, Saints??? All of those teams have good PFF o-line play with worse QB's than Kirk. Only NO is in cap hell
 
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MeowingCows

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View attachment 94943

Saw this as an excuse to keep Cousins. This doesn't show his QBR (ESPN stat) is 15th in the league.

Kirk is a play it safe QB. He FEATS in garbage time which inflates his stats. No he is not the sole reason for Vikings underperformance. But he is a LARGE reason why.

Not fixing the interior line for Kirk was Zimm and Rick's downfall.

Maybe another team will trade a 1 if they have a good line and are in desperate need of a QB... Browns, Philly, Back to Washington?, Saints??? All of those teams have good PFF o-line play with worse QB's than Kirk. Only NO is in cap hell
QBR is a near-useless stat since nobody knows what's in it. As for other stats, there's been little "garbage time" in his last 25 games. Especially not this season, where a vast chunk of games were still very active down to the wire. Chalking it all up to free stats is selling it way, way short and quite revisionist.

NO certainly can't afford him. The others could, but I doubt they're too interested. Each of those teams have greater issues than QB, and QB is by far the most expensive one to fix. Especially in the case of Cousins.

Spielman's downfall was lines and corners. Zimmer's downfall was a lost ability to coach either side of the ball (or even just leave the offense to its own devices).
 
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SWCy13

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I have no problem moving on from Kirk. I just think moving on then getting a replacement like a Winston, you are just getting worse at the QB spot (how much is debatable), having some cap impact, but probably not enough to offset your downgrade at QB, and you pretty much end up in the same middling purgatory where you're going to be picking in the teens or low twenties.

That's fair. I'd be totally on board with that as a fan & somebody who also wants to get out of the purgatory this team has been in.

The only issue I could see would be wasting the late prime years of some of your aging core - Thielen, Kendricks, Smith - & also wasting 1-2 years of having Jefferson on a rookie scale contract.

Definitely multiple factors to weigh. I am excited to have somebody new making personnel decisions. Thankful that they didn't just get rid of Zim & let Spielman run it back. That era & way of thinking had definitely run its course.
 

cytor

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I like the idea of trading Cousins, even if it's for a mid-round pick. Alex Smith a few years back got a 3rd + a starting CB, so if you can do something even remotely in that ballpark I'd pull the trigger. Kirk is fine, however, at a $45m cap hit, they'd have to cut multiple quality starting (albeit aging) players (Thielen, Harrison Smith, Michael Pierce, etc.) just to get below the cap. He's not worth doing that.

Trade Kirk, clear $35m in cap space (after eating the $10m), & try to find a bridge type of QB. I would be fine with Jameis or Mariota. A lot of analytical-type QB numbers don't see too much of a difference between them or Kirk anyways, & they'd likely be available at about 1/4 of the cost.

If one of them remotely works out, you have a guy for a few years. If they don't work out, you're likely picking in the top 10 & can take your shot at a top tier QB in 2023 (CJ Stroud!!!). Even if one of those types of guys does pan out, you can still be aggressive & try to trade up for a top guy.

This franchise just needs to get a franchise changing QB - whatever it takes - just please finally find one.
Given the history of Ohio State QB's in the NFL, I will have to say hard pass. Noy saying Stroud will be average or bad... but he has a lot of history to overcome.
 

cytor

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View attachment 94943

Saw this as an excuse to keep Cousins. This doesn't show his QBR (ESPN stat) is 15th in the league.

Kirk is a play it safe QB. He FEATS in garbage time which inflates his stats. No he is not the sole reason for Vikings underperformance. But he is a LARGE reason why.

Not fixing the interior line for Kirk was Zimm and Rick's downfall.

Maybe another team will trade a 1 if they have a good line and are in desperate need of a QB... Browns, Philly, Back to Washington?, Saints??? All of those teams have good PFF o-line play with worse QB's than Kirk. Only NO is in cap hell
The crappy defense that last 2 years are the biggest reason why they stunk. Not even close.
 
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joefrog

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This. If they're dumping Kirk, then they should let Mond have the reins. Ideally you don't want any more than 5 wins, maybe 6, in that scenario. Any more than that and you're out of the top 10 and you might as well have kept Cousins and try to plug the holes on the defense.

Entering the season with Mond as the starter would lead to a player revolt. In case you need interpretation, Zimmer essentially told everyone that Mond absolutely sucks and will never be an NFL starter at that press conference. He also was probably extremely mad that they took a QB in the 3rd round, when an available quality starter would have saved his job.

FYI, Mahomes was pushing Alex Smith hard by the end of his rookie season. Coaches and players could already tell he had "it". Same is almost certainly true with Mond in the other direction.
 

drmwevr08

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Entering the season with Mond as the starter would lead to a player revolt. In case you need interpretation, Zimmer essentially told everyone that Mond absolutely sucks and will never be an NFL starter at that press conference. He also was probably extremely mad that they took a QB in the 3rd round, when an available quality starter would have saved his job.

FYI, Mahomes was pushing Alex Smith hard by the end of his rookie season. Coaches and players could already tell he had "it". Same is almost certainly true with Mond in the other direction.
Well in that case, thank God for Mond. I didn't need a 3rd rounder saving his old ass. I think we're reaching on a lot of this but certainly you will have to talk to the team, particularly the vets, about a rebuild if that happens. Your best off helping guys get out before they taint the new regime because they 'want to win now'. Still not sure that's realistic other than a first round playoff loss. Helps get there if Erin ends up in Denver.
 

Mr Janny

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View attachment 94943

Saw this as an excuse to keep Cousins. This doesn't show his QBR (ESPN stat) is 15th in the league.

Kirk is a play it safe QB. He FEATS in garbage time which inflates his stats. No he is not the sole reason for Vikings underperformance. But he is a LARGE reason why.

Not fixing the interior line for Kirk was Zimm and Rick's downfall.

Maybe another team will trade a 1 if they have a good line and are in desperate need of a QB... Browns, Philly, Back to Washington?, Saints??? All of those teams have good PFF o-line play with worse QB's than Kirk. Only NO is in cap hell
The Vikings had 14 one score games this year. Where's all of this garbage time you're talking about?

Cousins isn't my favorite quarterback. I have no real affinity for him, but some people let their dislike of him shape the narrative.
 

AuH2O

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View attachment 94943

Saw this as an excuse to keep Cousins. This doesn't show his QBR (ESPN stat) is 15th in the league.

Kirk is a play it safe QB. He FEATS in garbage time which inflates his stats. No he is not the sole reason for Vikings underperformance. But he is a LARGE reason why.

Not fixing the interior line for Kirk was Zimm and Rick's downfall.

Maybe another team will trade a 1 if they have a good line and are in desperate need of a QB... Browns, Philly, Back to Washington?, Saints??? All of those teams have good PFF o-line play with worse QB's than Kirk. Only NO is in cap hell

Look at Kirk's stats in the 4th quarter, OT, last 2 minutes, however you want to dice it. He played very well in those scenarios this year. And these stats over the past year and a half coincide with a defense that absolutely sucked balls. So basically with a bottom 5 defense the Vikings were 13-12, and the QB is top half in pretty much everything you can imagine, is #9 in PFF this year.

Feel free to go back to almost every game this year. Over and over and over again the offense came through late, and the defense faltered. Game after game.

This is not hard. The defense held this team back in a huge way. It was really expensive and really bad. You're not winning with that.

Changing the QB isn't going to address the major, overwhelming problem with this team. Now maybe that's what needs to happen.
 

AuH2O

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Mostly looking at Expected Points Added, which is a pretty key indicator in most analytical circles & weighs plays situationally vs just raw numbers. His last year as a starter (the year he threw 30 picks, which admittedly is a major issue!) he was top 10 in that measure.

I guess my main argument is that we haven't been a playoff team 3 out of the 4 years Kirk has been here. He's clearly not good enough (despite what the box score says) to overcome a poor defense & bad o-line like the truly elite QBs do. And, if you keep him at his current cap hit, there's almost no path to having a better defense or o-line as you'll have to cut quality starters just to get under the cap. So I just don't see a ton of downside in moving on from him.
I can see "expected points added" being high for Winston his last full season as a starter. He had a ton of yards, a lot of TDs, but also 30 picks. I'm guessing expected points added isn't a net factor that discounts turnovers? Because 30 Ints isn't a small thing. That's a number you simply aren't going to win with no matter what.