Martina Navratilova and Trans Athletes

[MeowingCows]

The common sense answer here is that you have to have these individuals compete against other people of their assigned sex at birth, to match their competition physically and fairly. Men and women simply are not created equal in this particular realm.

As this issue starts popping up more and more often, someone's going to have to make the call on it.

 

[HFCS]

The common sense answer here is that you have to have these individuals compete against other people of their assigned sex at birth, to match their competition physically and fairly. Men and women simply are not created equal in this particular realm.

As this issue starts popping up more and more often, someone's going to have to make the call on it.

It can't be that simple. In Texas this means they force girls transitioning who are taking male hormones to compete against girls. The case in question the kid didn't even want to compete in the girls division, wanted to compete in boys division, but the state forced the kid into girls division. Basically everyone was unhappy with the outcome and it wasn't fair to anybody's wishes. Parents of other girls were demonizing the kid but the kid didn't even want to be in girls division.

 

[harimad]

This thread is going to get out of hand pretty quickly. So let me at least try to put some science into it before that happens.

First, the idea that males are born with an inherent physical advantage over females is categorically false. The advantage is gained at puberty (testosterone, specifically) which generally results in grown men being taller and stronger than grown women. A transgender girl (assigned male at birth) who never undergoes male puberty will have whatever inherent physical capabilities that any girl born with her genetic makeup would have-- no advantage whatsoever, because she has never experience the effects of testosterone. There are exceptions of course-- there are very strong women, just like there are very strong men. Caster Semenya, the South African (genetic XX) woman is an example-- she had naturally elevated levels of testosterone, but was born female. Many female athletes who are globally elite athletes have this advantage to some degree.

A transgender woman (assigned male at birth) who did go through male puberty but transitioned afterwards, will have an advantage. Some of these advantages are higher strength, stronger bone density, and a larger heart which grants a VO2 max advantage.

@HFCS many truly transgender people have known from birth that something was wrong. I was one of them. I might be misinterpreting your use of the word "concern" earlier, but in my opinion, transgender people are better off when they are allowed to delay puberty so that they can receive the therapy that they need to determine if this is the path that truly need to follow, along with hormones to transition when cleared by their therapists. A transgender person who transitions early in life will look indistinguishable from their cisgender counterparts, and assuming they live a life of stealth (not divulging their transgender status) will not be victims of harassment.

 

[MeowingCows]

It can't be that simple. In Texas this means they force girls transitioning who are taking male hormones to compete against girls. The case in question the kid didn't even want to compete in the girls division, wanted to compete in boys division, but the state forced the kid into girls division. Basically everyone was unhappy with the outcome and it wasn't fair to anybody's wishes. Parents of other girls were demonizing the kid but the kid didn't even want to be in girls division.

Wait, good point. I was only thinking about one side of the equation.

I guess then the simple answer is to basically have any transitioning athlete compete against men either way? Puts FtM transitioners at a clear disadvantage, though, but I suppose that's better than giving MtF transitioners a clear advantage (over women).

Also, my opinion is subject to current medicinal limits. If in the future we really can quick alter someone's hormone levels and physical characteristics to that of their desired sex reasonably quickly, then I don't see why they couldn't compete how they wish -- but I don't feel like we've reached that technological point yet (I could be wrong/uninformed, as well).

 

[capitalcityguy]

This thread is going to get out of hand pretty quickly. So let me at least try to put some science into it before that happens.

First, the idea that males are born with an inherent physical advantage over females is categorically false. The advantage is gained at puberty (testosterone, specifically) which generally results in grown men being taller and stronger than grown women..

That doesn't explain the difference in development between boys/girls as infants, toddlers ,and on the elementary playground. In all instances, as a whole differences between the sexes are observable. Again....as a whole.....comparing them as groups (not individuals).

 

[HFCS]

@HFCS many truly transgender people have known from birth that something was wrong. I was one of them. I might be misinterpreting your use of the word "concern" earlier, but in my opinion, transgender people are better off when they are allowed to delay puberty so that they can receive the therapy that they need to determine if this is the path that truly need to follow, along with hormones to transition when cleared by their therapists. A transgender person who transitions early in life will look indistinguishable from their cisgender counterparts, and assuming they live a life of stealth (not divulging their transgender status) will will not be victims of harassment.

My concern is only that I love her. Because of the recent transition neither pronoun feels like the truth to me, if I say "him" it doesn't feel truthful because I know what he's going through isn't anywhere near as easy as my "he" as a 14 year old boy. There are some personal details I may PM you later if you don't mind, I honestly don't know anybody in my life to talk to with frst hand experience other than this specific loved one even though I live blocks from one of the biggest LGBT communities.

 

[HFCS]

Wait, good point. I was only thinking about one side of the equation.

I guess then the simple answer is to basically have any transitioning athlete compete against men either way? Puts FtM transitioners at a clear disadvantage, though, but I suppose that's better than giving MtF transitioners a clear advantage (over women).

Also, my opinion is subject to current medicinal limits. If in the future we really can quick alter someone's hormone levels and physical characteristics to that of their desired sex reasonably quickly, then I don't see why they couldn't compete how they wish -- but I don't feel like we've reached that technological point yet (I could be wrong/uninformed, as well).

I knew you didn't mean it that way from your post history...but some on the extreme spectrum do.

 

[crawfy54]

So here we are, suggesting that 11 year old boys take medication to delay their puberty. JFC

 

[CloneFan4]

Cautious, reasoned arguments are hard. And not really much fun.

Ad hominem is easy. And fun. Tickles our "us versus them" monkey brains.

@Cat Stevens

 

[Cat Stevens]

@Cat Stevens

I support your decision. I will not judge you for being who you truly are

 

[CloneFan4]

So here we are, suggesting that 11 year old boys take medication to delay their puberty. JFC

You're not developed enough to make the decision to smoke cigarettes or watch porn at 11 legally but taking life-altering drugs at 11 is allowed. I don't agree with it at all but if this is going to be allowed, there needs to be an age minimum of 18.

 

[harimad]

That doesn't explain the difference in development between boys/girls as infants, toddlers ,and on the elementary playground. In all instances, as a whole differences between the sexes are observable. Again....as a whole.....comparing them as groups (not individuals).

Definitely a debate to be had, but many gendered differences can be explained by how a child is raised. Society teaches us many things among them that pastel pink means feminine and pastel blue means masculine. Boys don't cry, girls are sweet, etc. Parents who have been socialized in this behavior all their lives impart this socialization upon their children from birth.

I was speaking only about physical differences though. The kinds of things that matter in athletics.

 

[harimad]

You're not developed enough to make the decision to smoke cigarettes or watch porn at 11 legally but taking life-altering drugs at 11 is allowed. I don't agree with it at all but if this is going to be allowed, there needs to be an age minimum of 18.

Respectfully, this attitude condemns most transgender individuals to either a shortened lifespan (via the suicide route) or a lifetime of harassment from closed-minded individuals who have an easy time shooting the visibly transgender fish in the socially acceptable harassment barrel.

 

[dmclone]

Probably best I don't comment on something I don't understand. Me talking about this subject would be like my 85 YO mother talking about the future of AI.

I will say that it seems like a topic where there is no right/wrong answer that covers every scenario.

 

[Cat Stevens]

Respectfully, this attitude condemns most transgender individuals to either a shortened lifespan (via the suicide route) or a lifetime of harassment from closed-minded individuals who have an easy time shooting the visibly transgender fish in the socially acceptable harassment barrel.

With all of the reported suicides from bullying reported, and the large amount of numbers that aren’t reported, it’s offensive that someone would disagree with this post.

Then I saw who it was, and what they read for sources and it made sense, unfortunately.

 

[Sigmapolis]

We're 19 posts in and I'd say the second post is the the one closest to being guilty of this.

There's also something to be said for giving people a chance before condemning them (pointing finger at myself sometimes on this).

This is more of a general statement about the Cave on CF and discourse generally in 2019. This thread is doing okay so far, yes, but I think we both know the serious, difficult discussion of transgendered or non-binary athletes can get ugly real fast.

 

[harimad]

With all of the reported suicides from bullying reported, and the large amount of numbers that aren’t reported, it’s offensive that someone would disagree with this post.

Then I saw who it was, and what they read for sources and it made sense, unfortunately.

Yep. I wasn't surprised either.

And if I were to make a change to my post-- I would correct it to say that those who commit suicice ALSO suffer from a lifetime of harassment. It's just that much more sad that they kill themselves rather than deal with it.

 

[MeowingCows]

Respectfully, this attitude condemns most transgender individuals to either a shortened lifespan (via the suicide route) or a lifetime of harassment from closed-minded individuals who have an easy time shooting the visibly transgender fish in the socially acceptable harassment barrel.

Simple solution: make it legal for kids to watch porn and smoke cigs while transitioning. There everyone's happy!

This is more of a general statement about the Cave on CF and discourse generally in 2019. This thread is doing okay so far, yes, but I think we both know the serious, difficult discussion of transgendered or non-binary athletes can get ugly real fast.

That's the end result of being in a politics-negative, very-divisive culture. I'm don't think it's really a new or recent thing, either, it's just more and more visible for new media platforms (some of the dialogue and strategy is new, but I have a hard time believing the underlying feelings are).

 

[Cyclonepride]

I think if using antiandrogens they can get down to a range that is consistent with biologically female athletes it might be ok

How do you determine the range? Just enough to be equivalent to someone like Venus or Serena Williams? Or would it have to be an average? It doesn't seem fair to allow someone the full range that includes freak athletes like the Williams sisters.

 

[crawfy54]

Yep. I wasn't surprised either.

And if I were to make a change to my post-- I would correct it to say that those who commit suicice ALSO suffer from a lifetime of harassment. It's just that much more sad that they kill themselves rather than deal with it.

Nevermind the fact that most suicides by transgendered people occur after transition.