Elam ending...NCAA

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ricochet

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One thing I like about college basketball is when the walk-ons get to play (Stuuuuuuuu!). If the other team left their starters in they could easily go on a 25-4 run or something. Obviously you would put your own starters back in before that happened but a momentum shift and players coming in cold could make things interesting and you might not want to risk it. I suppose you could put the walk-ons in a minute or so before the elam ending starts and swap the starters back in to finish but that seems weird.

I'm 100% for it in overtime though.
 
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Sigmapolis

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I guess it comes down to if you think clock management is a "core" facet of the game like I think anybody would say it is with football. With football, however, you manage the clock with strategic play selection, the change of possession, and careful use of timeouts, not with intentionally provoking a penalty in the way you do with basketball.
 

VeloClone

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I guess it comes down to if you think clock management is a "core" facet of the game like I think anybody would say it is with football. With football, however, you manage the clock with strategic play selection, the change of possession, and careful use of timeouts, not with intentionally provoking a penalty in the way you do with basketball.
Or as Missouri notoriously did against ISU - with faked injury to get the FG unit on the field.
 

VeloClone

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I am generally against rules that fundamentally change the game of basketball. But then I back myself away from the cliff by remembering that basketball used to be played with a peach basket, there was no dribbling, each basket was followed by a jump ball and the court was literally inside a cage.
 

JM4CY

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It’s not a terrible idea at least to consider it on some level and explore what it can bring. However, it seems like a really silly thing for NCAA basketball to spend any time considering when they have corruption going on nationwide and what appears to be no accountability for guys like Tom freaking Eades working a boat load of their games.
 
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HFCS

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It would work great in the NBA where offenses are generally good and shooters are good.

In college where even good teams are sometimes intentionally slow on offense it would be more of a mixed bag. Let's say Wisconsin or Virginia is ahead by 10...if they keep playing their typical game it could take forever for them to score 7 or their opponent to score 17. Definitely a lot longer than it would have taken for them to kill 4 minutes of clock playing their intentional clock killing boredom ball.
 

alarson

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not with intentionally provoking a penalty in the way you do with basketball.

Yeah, when you think about it its always a bit of a weird thing that committing a violation can often be helpful that committed the violation. While it has resulted in some comebacks, it also seems rather antithetical to good rulemaking. Could argue if 'strategic rulebreaking' is common then the rules need fixed.. they just havent been and have been accepted as part of the game.

The more i think of it, the more i think i might like to see what it'd look like if fouls always gave the fouled team the ball back (and you got a bonus shot or two after 7\10 fouls)
 

Isualum13

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Why wouldn't it? You are just giving your opponent free points that inch them closer to the seven needed without helping yourself. You are not stopping a clock at that point.
The situation I think of is the opponent is 3 points away. You foul before they even get close to shooting to avoid a look at a 3 point shot.
 

heitclone

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This ending is exciting but its hacky, arena league type of stuff, more suited for the kind of league its used in now. I get why some people don't like the hack a shaq stuff but I don't have a problem with it, there are tons of rules that get exploited.
 

shagcarpetjesus

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I like the fact that the Elam ending also incentivizes the team in the lead to run offense and look to score instead of milking the shot clock the last 4 minutes of the game and then chucking up some garbage shot at the last second.
 

FOREVERTRUE

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Yeah, when you think about it its always a bit of a weird thing that committing a violation can often be helpful that committed the violation. While it has resulted in some comebacks, it also seems rather antithetical to good rulemaking. Could argue if 'strategic rulebreaking' is common then the rules need fixed.. they just havent been and have been accepted as part of the game.

The more i think of it, the more i think i might like to see what it'd look like if fouls always gave the fouled team the ball back (and you got a bonus shot or two after 7\10 fouls)

A lot of games are similar and it requires strategy. Why would someone intentionally walk someone in baseball, isn't the goal to get everyone out? It is a calculated risk just like fouling at the end of a basketball game. Yes it can make the game boring and long, but it is a risk to take to win the game.
 

Sigmapolis

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Yeah, when you think about it its always a bit of a weird thing that committing a violation can often be helpful that committed the violation. While it has resulted in some comebacks, it also seems rather antithetical to good rulemaking. Could argue if 'strategic rulebreaking' is common then the rules need fixed.. they just havent been and have been accepted as part of the game.

The more i think of it, the more i think i might like to see what it'd look like if fouls always gave the fouled team the ball back (and you got a bonus shot or two after 7\10 fouls)

Reminds me of this incident...



Was that smart on the Ravens' part...?

Objectively yes.

But was it also a violation of the competitive spirit of the game and an attempt to work a loophole in the rules to give yourself an advantage -- in this case, running out the clock without giving the Bengals another possession or risking a blocked punt?

Maybe.

Fouling in basketball at the end of a game is just a small-scale version of that.
 

Sigmapolis

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A lot of games are similar and it requires strategy. Why would someone intentionally walk someone in baseball, isn't the goal to get everyone out? It is a calculated risk just like fouling at the end of a basketball game. Yes it can make the game boring and long, but it is a risk to take to win the game.

An intentional walk is not breaking any rules, though.

It would be like a balk somehow, perversely, leading to some advantage.
 

GrindingAway

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I think in general in makes a lot of sense and please please if we are going to stand behind the idea of "we can't afford shot clocks in high school basketball" (which is BS but different topic) then consider it for high school. Teams beginning to stall and take the air out of the ball has almost ruined high school basketball for me.


Regarding the college game the main reason I hear for not implementing fall in the "but it's always been this way category."

Yeah we'd lose buzzer beaters. You're right we wouldn't have Christian Laettner's buzzer beater. Instead you would have had something like score is 103-102. Elam ending score is 105, Duke ball. Grant Hill hits a three pointer to win it 105-103. Admittedly not quite as thrilling as the full court length pass, but you'd still have players and crowd going nuts and we'd be talking about it for years. Small downside. I'd make that trade to eliminate the much more frequent occurrence of games ending in a miserable foul fest.

Back to my opening though - please ISHAA make this change.
 

FDWxMan

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Other than the first post of this thread, is there a single other credible source talking about the NCAA "strongly considering" adopting this nonsense? Or are we in "15 inches of Facebook snow next Tuesday" territory?

Just wondering so I can apply the proper amount of panic.
 

jbhtexas

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Yeah, when you think about it its always a bit of a weird thing that committing a violation can often be helpful that committed the violation. While it has resulted in some comebacks, it also seems rather antithetical to good rulemaking. Could argue if 'strategic rulebreaking' is common then the rules need fixed.. they just havent been and have been accepted as part of the game.

The more i think of it, the more i think i might like to see what it'd look like if fouls always gave the fouled team the ball back (and you got a bonus shot or two after 7\10 fouls)

Perhaps back in the day when the bonus rule was first implemented, free throw shooting was so good that a foul which resulted in FTs was nearly an automatic 2-pt penalty for the defense. In any case, I agree with you that the rules should do as much as possible to take away any possible gained advantage by the fouling team. I think some form of always returning possession to the fouled team with eventual FT shooting/returned possession after a certain number of fouls accomplishes that. Without the FTs, the defense could keep fouling until they get a turnover.
 

VeloClone

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A lot of games are similar and it requires strategy. Why would someone intentionally walk someone in baseball, isn't the goal to get everyone out? It is a calculated risk just like fouling at the end of a basketball game. Yes it can make the game boring and long, but it is a risk to take to win the game.
Why would anyone intentionally give up possession of the puck to get it to the other end of the ice during a penalty killing situation?
 

jbhtexas

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Regarding the college game the main reason I hear for not implementing fall in the "but it's always been this way category."

Then you should listen better. It doesn't need to be implemented (at any level in basketball IMO) because there are better ways to deal with the foul problem that will work within the existing framework of a timed game.
 

VeloClone

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Perhaps back in the day when the bonus rule was first implemented, free throw shooting was so good that a foul which resulted in FTs was nearly an automatic 2-pt penalty for the defense. In any case, I agree with you that the rules should do as much as possible to take away any possible gained advantage by the fouling team. I think some form of always returning possession to the fouled team with eventual FT shooting/returned possession after a certain number of fouls accomplishes that. Without the FTs, the defense could keep fouling until they get a turnover.
There you go talking about most WVU basketball games again.
 

NickTheGreat

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Too drastic of a change. I like the premise, but don't want to see it.

I'd prefer to give the 'fouled team' the chance to take the ball back, rather than shoot the free throws. Or start calling the fouls "intentional," which they are, and get the shots and the ball, or something like that.