Could Otz be the end of Hoiberg's coaching career?

[madguy30]

Fred returned to Ames at the right time. McDermott left town ahead of the posse to Creighton. Iowa State was evidently less desirable than Creighton HC job. Fred returns to much hype and fanfare. Got good Assistants. Steadies the ship. And takes a gamble on Royce White. Along with some other unhappy transfers. Gets a couple very good recruiting classes. Has success. And parlays it into a $25 million coaching deal. Cupboard is full. Left on top.

I have no problem with Fred. He did us okay. Prohm is the one who let us down. And another round with Fred would not be like the first. That ship has sailed. Fred’s weaknesses are exposed. He is not a good Coach.

Oddly he was ahead of the game a bit with play style and recruiting and now doesn't seem to be able to adjust a decade later.

I'd bet that would have happened even if he stayed. It was a little apparent his last season when teams muddled the game up and ISU couldn't get out of it.

 

[MJ271]

You guys might be right to a point (in 2017-18). Yeah Wiggington and Lard seemed to be great freshman adds. But there wasn't much beyond that, and T. Lewis turned into a bust.

I was also merely looking at their record that year. It was not good. They only had 4 conference wins and were 10th in the conference!
2017-18 Iowa State Cyclones Schedule and Results | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
2017-18 Iowa State Cyclones Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

I get what you're saying, but I agree with others that there were still positive signs. Of those 4 conference wins, 2 were against ranked Tech and West Virginia teams by 18 and 16 points, respectively. Conference play also started with 4 losses, but 2 of those were OT losses and one was by 5 in Lawrence.

Down the stretch of conference play, it also should be kept in mind that they were dealing with a lot of stuff, with both Babb and Young out from injury, plus Brase's inconsistency with injury, plus Jackson's father dying. In Morgantown, Talley basically played point guard for 40 minutes. Lewis went from barely playing earlier in conference to being a very important player. Lard had to play nearly entire games while staying out of foul trouble. Obviously a significant amount of that was on Prohm for roster construction, but that season still gave me a lot more hope than a typical last place season would.

 

[brokenloginagain]

Did a bit of googling to figure out.....

Fred's 10-yr NBA career: $10m
Fred's 12-yr coaching career: $40m.

Financially a brilliant move.

But was it "worth" it?

I'm sure plenty of us would happily be called/viewed a terrible basketball coach for that kind of coin.

 

[WhoISthis]

Oddly he was ahead of the game a bit with play style and recruiting and now doesn't seem to be able to adjust a decade later.

I'd bet that would have happened even if he stayed. It was a little apparent his last season when teams muddled the game up and ISU couldn't get out of it.

In 2015 the AdjO rating in KenPom was 12th best. There wasn’t much mudding up.

You seem to have an expectation of nearly no variance in play in order be good. Only very few elite teams have that.

 

[Cyclones125]

Bring Hoiberg back to coach the offense and we win a natty guaranteed.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I get what you're saying, but I agree with others that there were still positive signs. Of those 4 conference wins, 2 were against ranked Tech and West Virginia teams by 18 and 16 points, respectively. Conference play also started with 4 losses, but 2 of those were OT losses and one was by 5 in Lawrence.

Down the stretch of conference play, it also should be kept in mind that they were dealing with a lot of stuff, with both Babb and Young out from injury, plus Brase's inconsistency with injury, plus Jackson's father dying. In Morgantown, Talley basically played point guard for 40 minutes. Lewis went from barely playing earlier in conference to being a very important player. Lard had to play nearly entire games while staying out of foul trouble. Obviously a significant amount of that was on Prohm for roster construction, but that season still gave me a lot more hope than a typical last place season would.

That team was never going to be great, but I don't think I can remember an Iowa State basketball team that had worse luck down the stretch with injuries and player availability than that one.

Maybe they go more like 7-11 in conference instead of 4-14, but they had something there. Nick was a good college PG. Jackson was an ace shooter. Wigginton could fill it up. Lard was a double-double machine if he could stay on the court. Solomon was a solid foundational big man. Not much to speak about on the bench after those guys, but that team had its moments like winning its preseason tournament, beating Iowa, and beating three ranked Big 12 teams (including Trae Young!). For a rebuilding year, it was fine experience and outcome.

That year wasn't the problem. The past two years were.

 

[t-noah]

Just imagine looking at Iowa State and TJO this offseason as an outsider...

-- team *sucks* last year, locker room/culture/reputation a smoldering crater at this point

-- the few decent players (mostly Bolton and Coleman-Lands) leave

-- basically everybody else (none of which were any good anyways) leave, only a few scrubs left

-- bring in this mid-major guy who was okay but certainly not outstanding in Brookings and Paradise

-- keeps one assistant from the hated previous administration, brings in well-regarded assistants from the MVC and MWC to fill out the coaching staff but neither with high-major qualifications

-- cobbles together a roster from the scrap heap, mostly high-major guys at least but none of them were really "the guy" or a star on their teams... looks to be a team full of adequate role players

Brockington = Penn State
Kalscheur = Minnesota
Kunc = Washington State
Grill = Iowa State by way of UNLV
Enaruna = Kansas

-- roster lacks star power and offensive punch, looks to be overmatched on talent and continuity

-- does inherit and manage to keep a highly-rated PG recruit, though the depleted roster means that young PG is probably going to have to play a larger role than you would ideally want

-- the other highly-touted recruit inherited is kicked off the team

-- a few other guys (not very good ones, probably) kicked off the team/quit before the first game

-- playing both a tough non-con and in one of the most difficult conferences of all-time

Despite all this, TJO has this team in excellent shape to make the NCAA tournament with a single-digit seed. It is not likely, but Iowa State has a decent chance of making a run at the conference title.

I can imagine being a fan of another program and seeing this and wondering why can't we do that. If TJO can pull a worst-to-first Major League turnaround in the Big 12, why can't we do the same?

We should step back and admire this. What TJO has done is mesmerizing this season.

Reminds me of the SEC fans I know who always wanted their coach fired because "Kirby smart almost won a national title in his second year, why can't we do the same thing at our school?"

Well, duh -- your new coach isn't Kirby Smart. Your new coach is going to have to beat Kirby Smart and Nick Saban. And Georgia is probably the best or second-best coaching job in the SEC.

What produced this instant success is a confluence of circumstances unlikely to repeat.

Well yeah, was there any other way?

Seriously, it is amazing and I am enjoying this team more than any other in recent memory. I am also watching this team more than any other (due to better internet than in past), but still. I keep pinching myself on the transformation in a years time.

I get what you're saying, but I agree with others that there were still positive signs. Of those 4 conference wins, 2 were against ranked Tech and West Virginia teams by 18 and 16 points, respectively. Conference play also started with 4 losses, but 2 of those were OT losses and one was by 5 in Lawrence.

Down the stretch of conference play, it also should be kept in mind that they were dealing with a lot of stuff, with both Babb and Young out from injury, plus Brase's inconsistency with injury, plus Jackson's father dying. In Morgantown, Talley basically played point guard for 40 minutes. Lewis went from barely playing earlier in conference to being a very important player. Lard had to play nearly entire games while staying out of foul trouble. Obviously a significant amount of that was on Prohm for roster construction, but that season still gave me a lot more hope than a typical last place season would.

That team was never going to be great, but I don't think I can remember an Iowa State basketball team that had worse luck down the stretch with injuries and player availability than that one.

Maybe they go more like 7-11 in conference instead of 4-14, but they had something there. Nick was a good college PG. Jackson was an ace shooter. Wigginton could fill it up. Lard was a double-double machine if he could stay on the court. Solomon was a solid foundational big man. Not much to speak about on the bench after those guys, but that team had its moments like winning its preseason tournament, beating Iowa, and beating three ranked Big 12 teams (including Trae Young!). For a rebuilding year, it was fine experience and outcome.

That year wasn't the problem. The past two years were.

I have to say I was not following Prohm's teams very closely. You guys likely were which is great. I did have high hopes for Lard. He was a disappointment. So much talent. After this year, Prohm's third, I must say that I lost even more interest. I missed a closer following of players like THT, Marial Shayok, and of course Tyrese Haliburton, all of which were exceptional in hindsight.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Well yeah, was there any other way?

Seriously, it is amazing and I am enjoying this team more than any other in recent memory. I am also watching this team more than any other (due to better internet than in past), but still. I keep pinching myself on the transformation in a years time.



I have to say I was not following Prohm's teams very closely. You guys likely were which is great. I did have high hopes for Lard. He was a disappointment. So much talent. After this year, Prohm's third, I must say that I lost even more interest. I missed a closer following of players like THT, Marial Shayok, and of course Tyrese Haliburton, all of which were exceptional in hindsight.

I don't think I've ever seen a Cyclone waste as much talent as Cameron Lard did. He was ripping down 20 and 10 games against ranked teams in the Big 12 in 20-25 minutes of play as a freshman.

I watched that and thought he was going to win CPOTY as a junior or senior and play in the NBA.

Then... kaput.

 

[Cyched]

Then... puff.

FIFY

 

[Sigmapolis]

FIFY

Roughly half the NBA smokes weed -- maybe more.

That couldn't have been the fundamental issue.

* * *​

A small aside, but it has always amused me that the predecessor to the AC-130 "Spectre" gunship was the Vietnam-era AC-47 "Spooky" gunship, which was a modified version of the DC-3 airliner.

And somehow it ended up with the nickname of "Puff the Magic Dragon" --

Vietnam War gunship[edit]
During the Vietnam War, the AC-47 Spooky gunship was nicknamed the "Dragon" or "Dragon ship" by the Americans because of its armament and firepower—the nickname soon caught on, and American troops began to call the AC-47 "Puff the Magic Dragon."[35] Robert Mason's Chickenhawk states, in reference to the Peter, Paul, and Mary song playing on a turntable: "'Puff the Magic Dragon' was making me uncomfortable. It was the saccharine song that had inspired the naming of the murderous Gatling-gun-armed C-47s. I couldn't listen."[36]

 

[Tre4ISU]

Iowa State has a legacy of winning basketball. A better comparison to Nebraska basketball is old Iowa State football and the time it took Campbell to build a program.

Yeah, it took about 2 years to be competitive and basketball and football are nothing alike in building a program.

Bring Hoiberg back to coach the offense and we win a natty guaranteed.

Lol. Guy hasn't had a top 150 offense since he got to Nebraska. They're worse than us right now by a long way. No thanks.

 

[madguy30]

In 2015 the AdjO rating in KenPom was 12th best. There wasn’t much mudding up.

You seem to have an expectation of nearly no variance in play in order be good. Only very few elite teams have that.

And you can't post without being a total condescending dooche, FinalFour.

Why did you switch names?

That team struggled when an opponent was physical.

 

[HFCS]

Yeah, it took about 2 years to be competitive and basketball and football are nothing alike in building a program.

If a guy known for transfers couldn't turn it around with these latest transfer rules, it's completely over.

TJ did it in under a year with these rules.

 

[Gibbon]

By what measure do you claim he loves ISU? It looked more like he used ISU and then moved on.

I mean, the best 4 year stretch of basketball in school history is thanks to Fred. Plus the residuals enabling Prohm's success for a few years. Sounds like we still got the better end of the deal.

 

[CyCrazy]

And you can't post without being a total condescending dooche, FinalFour.

Why did you switch names?

That team struggled when an opponent was physical.

This makes sense i knew this guy was a retread. Finalfour was and is a gem.

 

[VeloClone]

Guess I just never bought the idea that ISU would’ve won that game with Niang. The result of the Niang injury was an expanded offensive role for Hogue and he played completely out of his mind and had arguably the best game a Cyclone has ever had in the tourney. And UConn answered every run to keep ISU at arms length all game long.

Is that the game that ISU traded Georges Niang for Daniel Edozie in the starting lineup? Just checking...

 

[Lineup]

Fred mad a big mistake

 

[VeloClone]

Fred returned to Ames at the right time. McDermott left town ahead of the posse to Creighton. Iowa State was evidently less desirable than Creighton HC job. Fred returns to much hype and fanfare. Got good Assistants. Steadies the ship. And takes a gamble on Royce White. Along with some other unhappy transfers. Gets a couple very good recruiting classes. Has success. And parlays it into a $25 million coaching deal. Cupboard is full. Left on top.

I have no problem with Fred. He did us okay. Prohm is the one who let us down. And another round with Fred would not be like the first. That ship has sailed. Fred’s weaknesses are exposed. He is not a good Coach.

Or more accurately, getting fired is less desirable than Creighton HC job. McD saw the writing on the wall and got out of Dodge just before the posse came rolling in.

 

[LincolnSwinger]

I get what you're saying, but I agree with others that there were still positive signs. Of those 4 conference wins, 2 were against ranked Tech and West Virginia teams by 18 and 16 points, respectively. Conference play also started with 4 losses, but 2 of those were OT losses and one was by 5 in Lawrence.

Down the stretch of conference play, it also should be kept in mind that they were dealing with a lot of stuff, with both Babb and Young out from injury, plus Brase's inconsistency with injury, plus Jackson's father dying. In Morgantown, Talley basically played point guard for 40 minutes. Lewis went from barely playing earlier in conference to being a very important player. Lard had to play nearly entire games while staying out of foul trouble. Obviously a significant amount of that was on Prohm for roster construction, but that season still gave me a lot more hope than a typical last place season would.

Wigginton and Lard oozed talent. When they were at their best, they were human highlights. IMO there is no shame in admitting to optimism at that point in Prohm's tenure.

 

[jsb]

Is that the game that ISU traded Georges Niang for Daniel Edozie in the starting lineup? Just checking...

They actually traded spots in the fans prior.

I was in San Antonio for that tournament and sitting pretty close to the Iowa State bench. I’ll never forget when the trainer came out to talk to Hoiberg after they took Georges to the locker room. You could literally see the blood drain from Hoiberg’s face.