Cliff Keen Las Vegas 2024

crablegs

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Mar 28, 2016
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Based solely off of this weekends performance, there was nothing to back this statement up. If you factor PJ'S performance from 2 years ago...maybe...?
Yes, I’m taking all data into account. Including 2 years ago, and this past summer. It would be silly not to.
 

ISU_Cyclones

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May 9, 2018
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I’m probably in the minority here and I said it this weekend, is Ech 41, Paniro 49 and Chittum 57 a better lineup than JFrost 41, Ech 49 and Chittum 57?

Paniro showed very little in his matches and wouldn’t a weight cut possibly hurt his tank even more?

I say this fully realizing his ceiling is high at 149, but wrestling for SV is more often than not going to get you burned. If he starts to open it up I fully change my mind, I’m just not sure that’s who he is in folk style.
I think before this weekend I would have been firmly in the ech/johnson/chittum camp as being better. I still think that's likely the case, but Johnson is really making a case for him to be excluded from the lineup. Johnson in general seems to perform very poorly at tournaments (outside of Big 12's that one time), so I think that should also be factored in when talking about his potential in March.
 

WiClone

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Mar 18, 2006
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If Ech goes 149 the entire seasons I’m afraid it will end in disappointment. I’ve stated this earlier but wrestling up reduces his margin of error so much that I do not think he will find the same kind of end of year success as he did last year.

I’m firmly in the camp of move them all down. I know PSU shined a light on wrestling at a more natural weight but we don’t have PSU level recruits. We have some really really good wrestlers but make no mistake they are not at the same level of the top PSU recruits.

As others have pointed out Ech and PJ don’t have these larger frames to fill out. The size difference, especially for Ech, is very pronounced.
 

TheJackWePack5

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Oct 2, 2011
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If Ech goes 149 the entire seasons I’m afraid it will end in disappointment. I’ve stated this earlier but wrestling up reduces his margin of error so much that I do not think he will find the same kind of end of year success as he did last year.

I’m firmly in the camp of move them all down. I know PSU shined a light on wrestling at a more natural weight but we don’t have PSU level recruits. We have some really really good wrestlers but make no mistake they are not at the same level of the top PSU recruits.

As others have pointed out Ech and PJ don’t have these larger frames to fill out. The size difference, especially for Ech, is very pronounced.
Honestly probably all depends on some injury situations.
 
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matclone

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Nov 13, 2016
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After reported victory over Redding and this weekend's performance, I'd say J Frost has earned the spot at 141. Likewise, Ech has earned 149.
I’m probably in the minority here and I said it this weekend, is Ech 41, Paniro 49 and Chittum 57 a better lineup than JFrost 41, Ech 49 and Chittum 57?

Paniro showed very little in his matches and wouldn’t a weight cut possibly hurt his tank even more?

I say this fully realizing his ceiling is high at 149, but wrestling for SV is more often than not going to get you burned. If he starts to open it up I fully change my mind, I’m just not sure that’s who he is in folk style.
I agree that 41 and 49 are as they should be. 57 is PJ's unless Chittum is going to wrestle this season, then it'll be a contest between the two.
If Ech goes 149 the entire seasons I’m afraid it will end in disappointment. I’ve stated this earlier but wrestling up reduces his margin of error so much that I do not think he will find the same kind of end of year success as he did last year.

I’m firmly in the camp of move them all down. I know PSU shined a light on wrestling at a more natural weight but we don’t have PSU level recruits. We have some really really good wrestlers but make no mistake they are not at the same level of the top PSU recruits.

As others have pointed out Ech and PJ don’t have these larger frames to fill out. The size difference, especially for Ech, is very pronounced.
I think Ech is top 5 at 149. He's earned the spot.
 

H82Lose

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May 24, 2024
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Outside of vibes, there is no reason to think J Frost is an AA contender. Solid wrestler, NCAA Q for sure. Probably win a match or even 2.

As to the weight thing, I really think you have to look at body type. Ech, Paniro, and Chittum are all short and stocky. Very filled out already and just minimal room to actually grow.

Guys like Frost and Swiderski have much more room to fill out and out on actual good weight.
Man, you are a tough crowd. J Frost wrestled really good for his 2nd tourney out. I disagree with you saying he cannot be in the AA conversation. His style will wear you down, and he is in good position most the time. Give him some more mat time, and he is only going to get better IMO
 

CycloneVet

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Jul 17, 2011
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Man, you are a tough crowd. J Frost wrestled really good for his 2nd tourney out. I disagree with you saying he cannot be in the AA conversation. His style will wear you down, and he is in good position most the time. Give him some more mat time, and he is only going to get better IMO

Nobody was thinking Evan was gonna be as good as he was last year at this time. Not all American good and giving Fix absolutely everything he wanted and didn’t want at Nationals good.
 

crablegs

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Mar 28, 2016
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Man, you are a tough crowd. J Frost wrestled really good for his 2nd tourney out. I disagree with you saying he cannot be in the AA conversation. His style will wear you down, and he is in good position most the time. Give him some more mat time, and he is only going to get better IMO
I never said he can’t be in the AA conversation, he could by the end of the year. What I said is that he’s not there now, and based on his results that putting him there already is not warranted.

He’s been absolutely destroyed by Happel multiple times who is a borderline AA himself. Going to need to see him beat someone in the top 12-14 before I put him in the conversation for AA.
 

NEICyFan

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Feb 10, 2011
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Man, you are a tough crowd. J Frost wrestled really good for his 2nd tourney out. I disagree with you saying he cannot be in the AA conversation. His style will wear you down, and he is in good position most the time. Give him some more mat time, and he is only going to get better IMO

"Cannot" is a strong word, and I'd never count anyone out, but his "best match" was a narrow loss to a guy who isn't an AA. I'm not sure we are even having this convo if not for the two MFFs in the consos.

He's a gutsy kid, no doubt about that.

Such horrible luck with injuries this year. It's taken a very solid to good team and made it an average one. Good opportunity for guys like J. Frost to get mat time and see where the season takes them.
 

crablegs

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"Cannot" is a strong word, and I'd never count anyone out, but his "best match" was a narrow loss to a guy who isn't an AA. I'm not sure we are even having this convo if not for the two MFFs in the consos.

He's a gutsy kid, no doubt about that.

Such horrible luck with injuries this year. It's taken a very solid to good team and made it an average one. Good opportunity for guys like J. Frost to get mat time and see where the season takes them.
Spot on. Happel won by pin and 12 points in their last 2 matchups and I’m not sure anyone thinks Frost’s performance was anything special if Happel doesn’t MFF.

People are overreacting to a close loss to the Navy kid. I think he just wrestles close matches. Went to OT with UR Singletary from OSU, beat Redding 3-2, beat #21 Santaniello 5-4.
 

TheJackWePack5

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Spot on. Happel won by pin and 12 points in their last 2 matchups and I’m not sure anyone thinks Frost’s performance was anything special if Happel doesn’t MFF.

People are overreacting to a close loss to the Navy kid. I think he just wrestles close matches. Went to OT with UR Singletary from OSU, beat Redding 3-2, beat #21 Santaniello 5-4.
I’m for one am excited to see what J Frost does in the next couple of weeks.

Gets matches with a few ranked opponents and like it or not, on paper he has wins over Happel and Latona for NCAA seeding purposes.
 

SouthJerseyCy

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Spot on. Happel won by pin and 12 points in their last 2 matchups and I’m not sure anyone thinks Frost’s performance was anything special if Happel doesn’t MFF.

People are overreacting to a close loss to the Navy kid. I think he just wrestles close matches. Went to OT with UR Singletary from OSU, beat Redding 3-2, beat #21 Santaniello 5-4.
Happel also beat Ech pretty handily the first time they wrestled. By the end of the year, Ech was winning. You get far too hung up when people say someone could be R12 or AA. No one is saying he's there now, but we all see the potential. You indicated there is no reason to think he is an AA contender. We all know AA's are not handed out in December...
 

CyCloneRastlinG

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Oct 15, 2017
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Paniro is only going to be as good as Paniro wants to be. Sitting on one knee and hoping to win a 1 takedown match won't get him on the podium in March. He can be a guy with potential all he wants, but good luck at nationals with that approach. Add that in with an injured ankle and I don't know what we will get for points even if he is at 149
 
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