BLUM: Party like it's 2001

[cyclones500]

That's a fun element of that site is having the play-by-play and box score.

In one of my 99-00 vs 16-17 simulations, Solo scored 20 points. I tried to imagine him doing that vs. the Fizer team.

 

[Sigmapolis]

That's a fun element of that site is having the play-by-play and box score.

In one of my 99-00 vs 16-17 simulations, Solo scored 20 points. I tried to imagine him doing that vs. the Fizer team.

Solo smash.

I was playing around with 2016-2017 versus the Kane-Ejim-Niang team once.

Matt Thomas (as a senior) scored 43 on something like 10/14 from 3 PT.

The latter team always did have issues defending the three...

 

[LivntheCyLife]

For them to not lose the 'last game of the year' would that be winning the national champ game. Because there would be no games left to play?

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

 

[jsb]

It took a while for everyone to think the 2000 team was really good, I think because it had been a while since we had been to the tournament (obviously we were spoiled since after 2001, there was maybe 1 tournament over 11 years).

Anyway one of my best memories of that year was that my friend and I bought NCAA tickets to the Minneapolis site in early February that year. Back then, we knew that Minneapolis would host the 2/15 and 7/10 games of the Midwest region. We bought the tickets hoping Iowa State would get the 7 seed in the midwest. After a couple of weeks, we started to realize they'd be higher than a 7, but a 2 seed was no sure thing until pretty late in the season. I know we deserved 1 that year, but it was pretty fun to watch the selection show and find out that we'd get to see Iowa State play.

 

[CYdTracked]

Not trying to get too off topic but the AOL Instant Messenger thing was a genius way to write this. I was going to school at that same time so that brought back some memories and oh the chaos we could cause with that program. We once created a fake AIM account and had a guy on our floor thinking some girl in the building had the hots for him as we were able to mess with him just enough to fall for the prank until we had to break the bad news to him. Sometimes would find that people that had their entire C: drive shared on the campus workgroup so you could find their AOL IM logs and sometimes you ran into some pretty juicy stuff like someone discussing their sex life. A lot of times when you found someone that had their PC completely shared like that you could also see their printer shared so we'd do the nice thing print a note to their printer that it might be a good idea to get one of their friends that knows something about computers to lock down their PC shares so people aren't able to see every file they have on it and we might paste one of their conversations on the note as an example why they need to do that.

 

[CYdTracked]

It took a while for everyone to think the 2000 team was really good, I think because it had been a while since we had been to the tournament (obviously we were spoiled since after 2001, there was maybe 1 tournament over 11 years).

Anyway one of my best memories of that year was that my friend and I bought NCAA tickets to the Minneapolis site in early February that year. Back then, we knew that Minneapolis would host the 2/15 and 7/10 games of the Midwest region. We bought the tickets hoping Iowa State would get the 7 seed in the midwest. After a couple of weeks, we started to realize they'd be higher than a 7, but a 2 seed was no sure thing until pretty late in the season. I know we deserved 1 that year, but it was pretty fun to watch the selection show and find out that we'd get to see Iowa State play.

That was a fun trip during spring break. A friend and I got tickets to both the men and women (who were also really damn good that year too) tournaments and spent spring break driving back and forth between Minneapolis and Ames to catch both the men and women's teams games.

 

[CYdTracked]

That's a fun element of that site is having the play-by-play and box score.

In one of my 99-00 vs 16-17 simulations, Solo scored 20 points. I tried to imagine him doing that vs. the Fizer team.

Fizer would probably score 40 on this year's team as even a healthy Solo would have gotten man handled with just how dominant and physical Fizer was in the paint. He was 6-8 and a chiseled 265 I think and pretty much had his way against several guys that eventually made the NBA. Chris Mihm probably still has nightmares of Fizer posterizing him. We also had 2 very deadly 3 point shooters in Nurse and Horton and Tinsley could hold his out there too. I just think the combination of size, shooting, and ways that team could score would give this current team some issues defensively. Tinsley made things happen when he drove and made a lot of guys look silly trying to guard him. Both he and Stevie were pretty good defenders so while they may of had their hands full trying to guard the year's team with the fast paced offense and 4 guard look I think this year's team would be at just as big of a disadvantage trying to keep Fizer from just dominating the game without leaving the 3 point shooters to double down on him or keeping Tinsley from breaking his man down 1 on 1 and either taking it to the rack or forcing the defense to collapse on him where he'd hit an open guy on the perimeter with a timely pass.

Nothing against this team or some of Fred's teams but that Elite 8 team that nearly made the Final 4 is the benchmark for what it takes to be in the conversation as the best team in school history so until another team makes it that far they are going to remain most people's pick for best team we've had. It's always fun to have these debates as it means that our current program is having success.

 

[kingcy]

Until and ISU team makes the Final 4 the 99-00 team will be the best in school history. That was the best team in the country that year and got ****** over by their seeding and the refs.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Fizer would probably score 40 on this year's team as even a healthy Solo would have gotten man handled with just how dominant and physical Fizer was in the paint. He was 6-8 and a chiseled 265 I think and pretty much had his way against several guys that eventually made the NBA. Chris Mihm probably still has nightmares of Fizer posterizing him. We also had 2 very deadly 3 point shooters in Nurse and Horton and Tinsley could hold his out there too. I just think the combination of size, shooting, and ways that team could score would give this current team some issues defensively. Tinsley made things happen when he drove and made a lot of guys look silly trying to guard him. Both he and Stevie were pretty good defenders so while they may of had their hands full trying to guard the year's team with the fast paced offense and 4 guard look I think this year's team would be at just as big of a disadvantage trying to keep Fizer from just dominating the game without leaving the 3 point shooters to double down on him or keeping Tinsley from breaking his man down 1 on 1 and either taking it to the rack or forcing the defense to collapse on him where he'd hit an open guy on the perimeter with a timely pass.

Nothing against this team or some of Fred's teams but that Elite 8 team that nearly made the Final 4 is the benchmark for what it takes to be in the conversation as the best team in school history so until another team makes it that far they are going to remain most people's pick for best team we've had. It's always fun to have these debates as it means that our current program is having success.

In my living memory (so mid-1990s and onward), there are four contenders for the best team in school history. I apologize to the old-timers, but these four stand out to me...

2000 -- Tinsley / Nurse / Horton / Johnson / Fizer

2014 -- Morris / Kane / Hogue / Niang / Ejim

2017 -- Morris / Mitrou-Long / Thomas / Burton / Young

2019 -- Weiler-Babb / Haliburton / Horton-Tucker / Shayok / Jacobson

Just imagining the 2000 team playing defense on those later three teams sounds like a heck of a basketball game. I wonder how they would deal with the "million miles an hour" break that Kane used to run or the shooting on the later teams, though.

 

[cyclones500]

Blum rules.

Retire his jersey now!

 

[VeloClone]

Fizer would probably score 40 on this year's team as even a healthy Solo would have gotten man handled with just how dominant and physical Fizer was in the paint. He was 6-8 and a chiseled 265 I think and pretty much had his way against several guys that eventually made the NBA. Chris Mihm probably still has nightmares of Fizer posterizing him. We also had 2 very deadly 3 point shooters in Nurse and Horton and Tinsley could hold his out there too. I just think the combination of size, shooting, and ways that team could score would give this current team some issues defensively. Tinsley made things happen when he drove and made a lot of guys look silly trying to guard him. Both he and Stevie were pretty good defenders so while they may of had their hands full trying to guard the year's team with the fast paced offense and 4 guard look I think this year's team would be at just as big of a disadvantage trying to keep Fizer from just dominating the game without leaving the 3 point shooters to double down on him or keeping Tinsley from breaking his man down 1 on 1 and either taking it to the rack or forcing the defense to collapse on him where he'd hit an open guy on the perimeter with a timely pass.

Nothing against this team or some of Fred's teams but that Elite 8 team that nearly made the Final 4 is the benchmark for what it takes to be in the conversation as the best team in school history so until another team makes it that far they are going to remain most people's pick for best team we've had. It's always fun to have these debates as it means that our current program is having success.

I think the 99-00 team would be very well equipped to guard ISU's current 4 guard lineup since Stevie had played his whole career as a guard who didn't have a long range shot. Eustachy turned him into an undersized forward. I think Tinsley, Horton, Nurse and Johnson would do very well guarding ISU's 4 guard lineup. In fact, it might be a lot of fun to see THT - Johnson and Shayok - Horton. What might not go so well for our current team would be Babb - Tinsley and Jacobson/Lard/Young - Fizer. Nurse - Haliburton would be interesting but Nurse - Wigginton would probably be a scorefest both ways.

I would take the 99-00 team every time. That team was just as tough as nails. I loved the quote by Nurse about how tough they played on game days. He said something to the effect, "Our practices are so tough that it makes game days seem like a day off."

 

[VeloClone]

Among my favorite parts: "Although that growth spurt never really happens, so when you work with Sage Rosenfels, they make you stand on a box on TV."

I would recommend Blum start wearing a pair of these when he works games with Sage:

 

[Sigmapolis]

I think the 99-00 team would be very well equipped to guard ISU's current 4 guard lineup since Stevie had played his whole career as a guard who didn't have a long range shot. Eustachy turned him into an undersized forward. I think Tinsley, Horton, Nurse and Johnson would do very well guarding ISU's 4 guard lineup. In fact, it might be a lot of fun to see THT - Johnson and Shayok - Horton. What might not go so well for our current team would be Babb - Tinsley and Jacobson/Lard/Young - Fizer. Nurse - Haliburton would be interesting but Nurse - Wigginton would probably be a scorefest both ways.

I would take the 99-00 team every time. That team was just as tough as nails. I loved the quote by Nurse about how tough they played on game days. He said something to the effect, "Our practices are so tough that it makes game days seem like a day off."

Talking about individual match-ups matters more when imagining the 2000 team guarding the 2019 team because 2019 would just switch everything on the perimeter.

I know Larry's style was a hard-nosed "own your man" sort of man defense, but I wonder how that press-man would have done against a team of so many slashers and shooters. I wonder if the passing and misdirection of our current team might have used that aggressiveness against them. If there was a style that could find fissures in that sort of aggressive defense through passing and driving, it would be the guards that we put on the floor right now.

I would bemoan not having Solomon Young against Fizer. Jacobson and Lard are tough guys, but I agree with you that Fizer would have feasted on them on the block -- if left alone against them. I think Prohm would have been pretty clever about doubling him, though, with some crafty guards looking for the ball, so maybe it would have worked out to contain him. Solomon is the only one we have now with the size and strength to body Fizer up (and he is pretty good at denying entry passed through positioning), though, so missing him hurts.

Solomon would box Fizer out on the offensive glass, too. I fear that might be a situation where you just say "bad match-up" of Fizer versus the 2019 team.

I feel like you scheme your defense around denying Fizer the ball and/or doubling him when he has it, and hope the (mostly) non-shooting guards on the 2000 team do not kill you. Do that and hope your offense has the firepower (and it does) to eventually outscore them.

According to Sports Reference, here is where the two teams rank on offense and defense...

2000 = 20 (offense) / 36 (defense) / 13 (overall)
2019 = 22 (offense) / 29 (defense) / 13 (overall)

Those two teams are close.

 

[VeloClone]

Talking about individual match-ups matters more when imagining the 2000 team guarding the 2019 team because 2019 would just switch everything on the perimeter.

I know Larry's style was a hard-nosed "own your man" sort of man defense, but I wonder how that press-man would have done against a team of so many slashers and shooters. I wonder if the passing and misdirection of our current team might have used that aggressiveness against them. If there was a style that could find fissures in that sort of aggressive defense through passing and driving, it would be the guards that we put on the floor right now.

I would bemoan not having Solomon Young against Fizer. Jacobson and Lard are tough guys, but I agree with you that Fizer would have feasted on them on the block -- if left alone against them. I think Prohm would have been pretty clever about doubling him, though, with some crafty guards looking for the ball, so maybe it would have worked out to contain him. Solomon is the only one we have now with the size and strength to body Fizer up (and he is pretty good at denying entry passed through positioning), though, so missing him hurts.

Solomon would box Fizer out on the offensive glass, too. I fear that might be a situation where you just say "bad match-up" of Fizer versus the 2019 team.

I feel like you scheme your defense around denying Fizer the ball and/or doubling him when he has it, and hope the (mostly) non-shooting guards on the 2000 team do not kill you. Do that and hope your offense has the firepower (and it does) to eventually outscore them.

According to Sports Reference, here is where the two teams rank on offense and defense...

2000 = 20 (offense) / 36 (defense) / 13 (overall)
2019 = 22 (offense) / 29 (defense) / 13 (overall)

Those two teams are close.

Tinsley was admittedly not a "shooting guard" but which of Horton (37%) and Nurse (42%) are you classifying as a "mostly non-shooting guard"? Tinsley probably wouldn't kill you from 3, but I would take my chances any day with someone doubling off of Jamaal so he gets an open driving lane even if it is ultimately clogged with bodies.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Tinsley was admittedly not a "shooting guard" but which of Horton (37%) and Nurse (42%) are you classifying as a "mostly non-shooting guard"? Tinsley probably wouldn't kill you from 3, but I would take my chances any day with someone doubling off of Jamaal so he gets an open driving lane even if it is ultimately clogged with bodies.

Three-point shooters of any significant volume from that season...



Compared to 2017 (and our own little Splash Brothers)...



And compared to 2019 (obviously still ongoing)...



You are right that Nurse was an elite shooter who held up an excellent percentage at modern volumes. The other few on the list? Eh, not so much. Make sure not to rotate off Nurse and if Horton or Tinsley kill you from three, well, oh well.

Again a good team, you have to make compromises. Our team right now is pretty crafty and sound on its rotations. I think you could contain Fizer with doubles and force the 2000 team into secondary options, which are not terrifying given their relative lack of shooting and, as you said, imagining Tinsley driving into a crowd in the paint.

The 2000 would definitely definitely get theirs, but I think the flexibility of the 2019 team could slow them down enough. The 2019 team can score plenty, too.

As my rankings above showed, I think they are pretty evenly matched, this is going to a Game 7 and it will be close kind of parity between the two of them within their eras.

 

[FinalFourCy]

Tinsley was admittedly not a "shooting guard" but which of Horton (37%) and Nurse (42%) are you classifying as a "mostly non-shooting guard"? Tinsley probably wouldn't kill you from 3, but I would take my chances any day with someone doubling off of Jamaal so he gets an open driving lane even if it is ultimately clogged with bodies.

JT had some clutch shots.

The style of play of that 1999-2000 team in combination with a significant mismatch in Fizer would win out. We’re more capable than past teams of this era, but this year’s KSU game is hardly the only occurrence of our current finesse style struggling with physical teams. Imo the 99-00 guards would mug these guys and Fizer would have our frontcourt thinking Clark and Lawson were easy covers. THT is inefficient as it is, and he’s not doing much on Johnson. Shayok is probably the most significant mismatch, but Horton was a versatile defender.


The 1999-2000 team exemplifies the style of team I hope we avoid in March. A pg capable of getting in the paint with two very good combo guards on the wing, a forward that is a complete mismatch, a team that rebounds and defends well, and can switch 1-4 (plus Fizer was an athletic 5).

 

[VeloClone]

Did you even watch that team play? Yeah, leave Horton wide open and see how that works out for you. The lack of numbers on threes from Kantrail (four attempts a game is not an insignificant number - we are not talking about a player who made a three once ever other game or so) had nothing to do with inability to make the shot or inability to handle the pressure. He absolutely drilled long threes in high pressure situations. He didn't need to take on a primary scoring role, but could when needed. If they were doubling Marcus off of him he would certainly make a team pay.

 

[Buster28]

"Although that growth spurt never really happens so when you work with Sage Rosenfels they make you stand on a box on TV."

That was the best line for me. Good stuff!

 

[Sigmapolis]

We can go back-and-forth on the schematic stuff all we want -- that is fun, but it does not really prove anything about the relative quality of the two teams.

This reminds me of the debate we had at some point between the 90s Bulls and the current Warriors. A tenet of the Bulls' side was that team and the game in general during that era was "tough," and it was certainly more physical and the officials allowed it to be, so the Warriors would see their finesse style roughhoused out of the gym.

You guys seem to be making a similar argument for the 2000 team.

I think the only fair comparisons you can make is relative quality between their peers of the same era through the computer rankings. I already posted the ones from Sports Reference above, and it says the two squads are shockingly close in their relative quality of offense, defense, and overall compared to the other teams in Division-1 out there.

I know everybody likes to talk about the toughness of the Fizer-Tinsely team, but I could just as easily bring up the fact that modern athletes are becoming larger, faster, and stronger every year. Comparison of heights for the starting fives...

6'1" Horton
6'1" Nurse
6'3" Tinsely
6'4" Johnson
6'9" Fizer

Compared to...

6'4" Horton-Tucker (and 240 as a "guard")
6'5" Haliburton
6'5" Weiler-Babb
6'6" Shayok
6'9" Jacobson

The 2019 team is collectively 12" taller than the 2000 team. All of those wings up there are long and disruptive on defense with their length, too. Shayok and Wigginton are pretty impressive athletes, and Lard has a heck of a lot of spring in him.

Shayok would be a mismatch, and Wigginton is still a next level athlete.

Even if the guys in the olden days were "tougher," they were still smaller, and I think the median athlete in college basketball now is much more athletic than the one circa 2000. This is the same reason modern NBA teams would smoke teams from the olden days -- the guys are just getting so much bigger and faster and stronger.

I hate that kind of comparison, though. I prefer to think of it as relative to their competition, where the computers are saying these two teams are very alike.

 

[VeloClone]

We can go back-and-forth on the schematic stuff all we want -- that is fun, but it does not really prove anything about the relative quality of the two teams.

This reminds me of the debate we had at some point between the 90s Bulls and the current Warriors. A tenet of the Bulls' side was that team and the game in general during that era was "tough," and it was certainly more physical and the officials allowed it to be, so the Warriors would see their finesse style roughhoused out of the gym.

You guys seem to be making a similar argument for the 2000 team.

I think the only fair comparisons you can make is relative quality between their peers of the same era through the computer rankings. I already posted the ones from Sports Reference above, and it says the two squads are shockingly close in their relative quality of offense, defense, and overall compared to the other teams in Division-1 out there.

I know everybody likes to talk about the toughness of the Fizer-Tinsely team, but I could just as easily bring up the fact that modern athletes are becoming larger, faster, and stronger every year. Comparison of heights for the starting fives...

6'1" Horton
6'1" Nurse
6'3" Tinsely
6'4" Johnson
6'9" Fizer

Compared to...

6'4" Horton-Tucker (and 240 as a "guard")
6'5" Haliburton
6'5" Weiler-Babb
6'6" Shayok
6'9" Jacobson

The 2019 team is collectively 12" taller than the 2000 team. All of those wings up there are long and disruptive on defense with their length, too. Shayok and Wigginton are pretty impressive athletes, and Lard has a heck of a lot of spring in him.

Shayok would be a mismatch, and Wigginton is still a next level athlete.

Even if the guys in the olden days were "tougher," they were still smaller, and I think the median athlete in college basketball now is much more athletic than the one circa 2000. This is the same reason modern NBA teams would smoke teams from the olden days -- the guys are just getting so much bigger and faster and stronger.

I hate that kind of comparison, though. I prefer to think of it as relative to their competition, where the computers are saying these two teams are very alike.

That Cyclone team was the smallest team in their league back then as well. But it still took 3 total overtimes to hand them their only two losses in Big 12 play.