NO offense to catholic's but you guys seem to be the only ones who have made crap up just to be different. Such as the service you provide is almost a play with actors. The smoke comming from the little pot. The neil before you enter the isle. REally I don't see where in the bible that all of this is neccesary to enter Heavan. Don't eat meat for 40 days??? Why? It says nothing about that in the bible. Christ did certain things for himself and never made anyone else do it if they were not down. Yet in the Catholic church they have so many rules that have nothing to do with anything about Real Christianity. Plus let's not forget that they seem to forget when there Priests get frisky with the alter boys and then cover it up. Yeah that is real Christisanity isn't mr. Pope.
Bad News for Protestants
- Thread starter CloneFan65
- Start date
Actualy quite easy if you quote chapter and verse from the BibleI researched this so I would be ready to answer questions about Purgatory.
[FONT="]To understand Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory and its basis in Sacred Scripture you first need to understand a few Christian principles.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 1[/FONT][FONT="]; There is a purification after death, i.e., there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 2[/FONT][FONT="]; Nothing unclean, that is nothing tainted with sin, will enter Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 3[/FONT][FONT="]; There is a process for the spirits of just men to be made perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 4[/FONT][FONT="]; There is a place other than Heaven or Hell, this place involves suffering and loss, and you will remain until no longer “tainted with sin†or “uncleanâ€.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 5[/FONT][FONT="]; There are two judgments.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 6[/FONT][FONT="]; God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.[/FONT]
[FONT="]BASIS IN SCRIPTURE[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 1[/FONT][FONT="]; There is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness, i.e., purification after death.[/FONT]
2 Samuel 12:13-18 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri'ah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead; for they said, "Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us; how then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm."
David sinned, confessed and was forgiven, but there was still punishment in that the child still died. David besought God and fasted but still the child died. There is more,
Numbers 20:12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.
God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promiseâ€.
The analogy that Scott Hahn, a former Protestant minister and now a leading Catholic apologetic, uses is that of someone breaking their neighbor’s window. The neighbor might "forgive" them, but you would still need to replace the window (the damage caused by your deed).
[FONT="]Principle 2[/FONT][FONT="]; Nothing unclean, e.g., nothing that is tainted with sin, will enter Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Revelation 21:27[/FONT][FONT="] But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Nothing unclean shall enter itâ€, “it†being the New Jerusalem (or Heaven), nothing unclean, nothing tainted with sin will enter Heaven. There is more,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matthew 5:48 [/FONT][FONT="]You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“You, therefore, must be perfectâ€, reinforces Principle 2 that nothing unclean will enter Heaven. But God wants us to be perfect. If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who "disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10). There is more,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Habakkuk 1:12-13[/FONT][FONT="] Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; and You, O Rock, have established them to correct. Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, and You can not look on wickedness with favor[/FONT]
[FONT="]God’s “eyes are too pure to behold evil†and “cannot look on wickedness with favorâ€. Whosoever comes into God’s presence must be perfectly pure and any sin is a stain of evil and wickedness reinforcing that we cannot enter Heaven if tainted with sin.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 3[/FONT][FONT="]; There is a process for the spirits of just men to be made perfect. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 12:22-23[/FONT][FONT="] But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[/FONT]
[FONT="]How are the “spirits of just men made perfect� There has to be a way, a process for the “spirits of just men†to be made “perfect†because of Principle 2 you must be “perfect†to enter Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 4[/FONT][FONT="]; There is a place other than Heaven or Hell, this place involves suffering and loss, and you will remain until no longer “tainted with sin†or “uncleanâ€.[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 Corinthians 3:13-15 [/FONT]each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
[FONT="]Where is this place that you will suffer loss and still be saved? Is it Heaven? You will not suffer loss in Heaven. Is it Hell? You cannot be saved once in Hell. There is more,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matthew 12:32[/FONT][FONT="] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Where is this place that there is forgiveness in the “age to come� Is it Heaven? You will not need forgiveness in Heaven. Is it Hell? You cannot be saved once in Hell. Or put another way, if there is no purification after death then this passage doesn’t make much sense. Just before this passage in Matthew Jesus had been casting out demons. He announced that the kingdom of God had come so there is no way Matthew 12:32 could be interpreted as saying the age to come was the New Covenant. There is more,[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 Peter 3:18-19[/FONT] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
[FONT="]Where are the “spirits in prison� Heaven in no way could be considered a “prison†and the spirits in Hell cannot be redeemed. There is more,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matthew 18:32-35[/FONT] Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."
[FONT="]You will not get out of this place until you have paid all of your debts, until all of your sins have been purified. There is more,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 12:9-11[/FONT] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[FONT="]In summary, there is a place that you will suffer loss and still be saved. It is not Heaven or Hell. There is forgiveness in the “age to comeâ€. This forgiveness does not take place in Heaven or Hell. If there is no purification after death then these passages don’t make much sense. Where are the “spirits in prisonâ€? Heaven in no way could be considered a “prison†and the spirits in Hell cannot be redeemed. This “discipline seems painful rather than pleasant†but later yields the “fruit of righteousnessâ€.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 5[/FONT][FONT="]; There are two judgments.[/FONT]
[FONT="]When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59). [/FONT]
[FONT="]Principle 6[/FONT][FONT="]; God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.[/FONT]
[FONT="]James 5:15 [/FONT][FONT="]The prayer of faith will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up again; and if he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The following passages make no sense in a Heaven and Hell only theology.[/FONT]
[FONT="]James 5:20[/FONT][FONT="] let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 Peter 4:8 [/FONT][FONT="]Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.[/FONT]
So far Principles 1-6 are based on Sacred Scripture that the Catholics and Protestants agree upon. The next passage comes from the Septuagint.
2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin
In the Septuagint in 2 Maccabees 12, in which Judah Maccabee and his men pray for their fallen comrades who had "fallen asleep in righteousness" so that they may be "freed from their sins" in the afterlife, and it was a "holy and pious thought" for them to do this. Thus 2 Maccabees endorses praying for the dead that they may be loosed from the consequences of their sins (for it must be the consequences of sin that are in mind since the saved are not sinning in the afterlife). Since it is not pleasant to be bound to the consequences of one's sins, we can infer some kind of pain or discomfort, and thus the full doctrine of purgatory—a purification (freeing) after death, which involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and which can be assisted by the prayers of the living.
Protestant Theology
However, while 2 Maccabees 12 certainly teaches the doctrine of purgatory, the doctrine is in no way "based on" that passage but based upon the principles derived from the numerous passages from our common books listed above, but more fundamentally, it can be derived from the principles of Protestant theology alone.
Protestants are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. They are equally firm about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification—a purification—of our natures whether they admit to it or not. To put it in more Protestant terms, "the final sanctification" or "the last rush of sanctification" is what we Catholics call Purgatory.
Conclusion – Catholic Theology
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but must actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered" if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered" remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Paul also tells the Corinthians at the Judgment Day “they would be changed and prepared for Heavenâ€. At the Judgment Day this “change†occurs instantly. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
I guess to me this explanation doesn't show me that there is a purgatory. It just seems to be misunderstandings of verses. The very first and most basic principle you gave for belief of purgatory is based off of old testament scripture, which I think most would agree that the OT methods of salvation became ancient history when Christ died for our sins to provide a free path to heaven for those that believe. The basis of Christianity is that Christ died for our sins and forgives us freely when we ask for it. "Washed white as snow" to me means that we are not punished for our sins once we have been forgiven, which means that we are without sin when we enter heaven, so we are in accordance with your second principle. For your principle 3, the process by which men's spirits are made perfect is accepting God's salvation, by which the old has been made new, and we are blameless in God's eyes. I believe that the "age to come" that you refer to in principle 4 is the end of time when judgement day arrives. Also, I think the "spirits in prison" refers to our spirits before we have accepted Christ, because they are destined to eternity in hell if we do not accept Him. Principle 5 I guess I just don't agree with because what would be the point of being at some in-between place if you're saying that we know instantly where our final destination will be regardless? Why not just send us to heaven or hell and be done with it? I just don't see in those verses where it's saying anything about purgatory. I believe the verses you reference for principle 6 are talking about salvation while people are still alive, not during the afterlife.
I really am not trying to rip you or poke fun at your beliefs in any way, I just don't see the same thing as you do when I read those verses...and when I look at the possible meanings, I don't see how else they could be taken. If I'm missing any major points or verses that I didn't mention please let me know.
The knowledgeable and faithful Catholic will tell you that these things aren't "necessary for salvation," but are ceremonial rituals that have built up as a result of centuries of church tradition.
The use of "smoke coming from a little pot," as you call it, (more accurately, censers -- metal incense containers suspended from chains) during mass is meant to represent the prayers of the faithful rising to heaven and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Smoke as a representation of God's presence has a scriptural basis in the Old Testament -- the people of Israel were led out of Egypt and guided during their wanderings in Sinai by the presence of God going before them, in the form of a pillar of smoke during the day and a pillar of fire at night.
"The kneel before you enter the aisle" is simply a form of showing reverence, submission and obeisance (in essence a form of humble salute) to God.
Not eating meat during the 40 days of the Lenten season is a ritual meant to reflect Christ's 40-day fast in the wilderness before beginning His earthly ministry. The idea of giving up meat (or something else) for Lent calls on the faster to "go without," to shed earthly comforts in order to focus more closely on God.
Interestingly, none of the practices you singled out for criticism are unique to the Catholic faith. Many Protestant denominations (including Lutherans and Episcopalians) and the Eastern Orthodox churches practice some or all of these rituals.
You are treading dangerous ground here. If you mention this, should you not also mention the instances of sexual sin seen among Protestant pastors and clergy? If were to take a headcount, I suspect that the number of disgraced Protestant clergy would be comparable or even greater than the number of disgraced Catholic priests.
None of the verses you quoted have anything to do with what happens after death. They have to do with how God dealt with temporal sins. Hebrews 12 tells us that God, out of love, disciplines believers who stray; he does not judge them out of wrath.
No argument there...
Yes, and that process is trusting in Jesus Christ for all that I need to enter Heaven. His perfect righteousness is imputed to me. My sins are forgiven. Nothing else is required. John Piper explains it much better than I can...
Faith and the Imputation of Righteousness :: Desiring God
In context, this verse is talking about church planters. It is the work of the church planters/leaders that will be tested by fire, not the church planters/leaders themselves. Those works not founded on Christ will be consumed by the fire, whereas those founded on Christ will earn heavenly rewards.
My discussion of your remaining points and proof texts would go similalry, so let's cut right to the chase. It comes down to what you believe about the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross. I believe the Bible to teach that Christ's work on the cross was sufficient. I believe his death covered the punishment for my sins and gave me the perfect rightousness that I need to stand before God. I don't need any further purifcation by fire, or some place to go and hang out in limbo while my sin debt is paid. My sin debt has been paid in full by Christ. The only way you need Purgatory is if Christ is not sufficient. For me, the entirety of the Protestant Bible seems to teach the sufficiency of Christ.
I have good (ex and present) Catholic friends. The thing that really bugs me about Catholicism is that it seems to instill fear and doubt in those believers about their eternal destiny (i.e Purgatory), and a sense of "I gotta do this". They should be joyously celebrating the gift of salvation and eternal life that Jesus Christ has won for them. The Gospel is a message of joy, not a message of fear and doubt.
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...and for that matter, where is Neil's isle? Atlantic? Pacific? Boy, Catholics are going to be pretty upset when they find out they have to go to Neil's isle in order to get to heaven. :wink0st:
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Or how about I am going to do good because it is the right thing to do, and by doing the right thing I have upheld the wishes of God. The funny thing with religion is that the emphasis is always on "do this to get this" it is never on do something just because it is the right thing to do.
But, if a religion is right, and someone rejects God, but is the nicest, least sinful person in the world, they are going to hell.
The pope is the one throwing stones here. Saying our religion is not worthy but his is worthy. Just because they Have tradition. Tradition is a ritual that grew. Kind of like the Catholic Church. It's a gigantic cult from what I see. What is the difference between a cult and a Catholic Church. Well from my point of view it's that the Catholic Church got really freaking big. The Symbalism at the church is more than most of us can take and so we prefer to wade through all the crap and get on with the service without the smoke and mirrors. I know you don't like what I say. That is fine. I will tell you one thing. I think Jesus is up there laughing at what the Catholics do in order to worship.
Yes, but I wasn't talking about these people. They aren't expecting to go to heaven so I look at them doing good as a more true act than some religious person who is doing good not for the good itself but as an act to get them to heaven.
That is exactly right. There was no such a term as Catholicism prior to the Schism. So how can the Catholic Church claim that the East split from the Catholic Church. It was a hard but simple split period into Eastern and Western Church. There were several good reasons for the Schism. A couple of the most important are the following: The East does not recognize the infallibility of the Pope and also basically there was a power struggle. The power was shifting from the East to the West and the bishops of the East did not like this trend. Icons (East) over statues (West) I believe was an issue as well.
One other thing that I alluded to above. There were 5 bishops prior to the Schism. The Bishop of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch. Thus, 4 of the bishops split from the bishop of Rome.
The only reason catholicism exists at all is to control wealth and power...this was especially true early in the church's existance. Christ was not catholica and some of the gnostic gospels (of course not recognized by the church) favor an individuals ability to commune with God without needing a church or priest as an intermediary. The reason for the church was to push this intermediary's role and secure the churches heirarchy into wealth and power.
kcbob79clone
Well-Known Member
First things first, you have no argument for Principle 2 and if Protestants believe that all are sinners and the santicfying grace is like snow on the manure pile, so how does the unclean sinner's soul enter heaven? As I say in my paper purtagory could be an instantaneus thing but something has to happen to the soul that has sinned because you must therefore be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Second, we joyfully celebrate our salvation but do not believe as the Protestants that once saved forever saved no matter what. You have to be very careful to not blow the sacrifice of the cross due to sinning.
The Catholic God is a forgiving God, a God of second chances but a Protestant that accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour and then sins the rest of his life is in jeopardy. I have read too many Protestant authors stating the once saved predestiny.
Conversely, I'd like someone to prove to me that heaven and hell exist, and that they aren't just ploys and ideas created by members of churches in order to gain wealth and power. :rolleyes5cz:
You can't "prove" something like that exists or not. It' like me asking you to prove to me that Jesus actually went down to hell, turned water into wine, arose Lazerus from the dead, and that Jesus resurrected after three days. It's not possible.
kcbob79clone
Well-Known Member
I do appreciate your reading and responding. I developed the paper on Purgatory in response to a Fundamentalist coworker who said he did not understand Purgatory. He read the paper and no longer wants to talk, at least you responded
Honestly, the OT Principle 1 I feel is probably the weakest, it just made logical sense to put it first. The OT is still important and is part of the Bible but if I rewrite this I will probably put that later or eliminate it. It is not the first and most basic though, it was just the first. I would say that 2-3 are the most basic.
On Principle 2 how is the unclean soul cleaned if the person does not ask for forgiveness before dying suddenly? Washed white with snow is the Luther phrase for grace being like snow covering a manure pile which Catholics do not believe, we believe grace changes us.
Now Purgatory may just be the Protestant santicfyng grace and could be instantaneous at death but the process must take place because you must be perfect.
kcbob79clone
Well-Known Member
Come on guys, we are talking about the Church of Rome, arguing when a particular term came into usage is ...
The main issue is the primacy of the Pope between East and West. The Byzantine Rite of the Church of Rome has icons instead of statues so that is not the issue. The Pope decided to change the Creed without a Council and that was contentious but the biggest thing was the lack of support from the West for the Muslim invasion until Jerusalem was threatened.
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
