Just for clarfication, did the pope say this was infallible, or are some of you making the (improper) assumption that everything the pope says is infallible?
Bad News for Protestants
- Thread starter CloneFan65
- Start date
Yes, I was hoping someone corrected this.
Catholic (big 'C') = Roman Catholic
catholic (little 'c') = is a synonym for "univerisal" or "all-encompassing"
EDIT: sorry, I missed a few of the explanations above, late to the party
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If you want to get really technical, Catholicism didn't even exist until the Schism. The church that split into Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Catholicism is called Chalcedonian Christianity, referring to the Council of Chalcedon, origin of the Chalcidonian Creed, which acknowledges that Jesus Christ was fully human and fully divine. It is dogmatic in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy, demonstrating the split.
Neither side "originated" from the other; it was an even split. For purposes of illustration, the Chalcedonian movement was like a stretched rubber band- it was one unit with tension in the middle (sort of like compromising within themselves). Then the Schism happened, the rubber snapped. Orthodoxy snapped to the right, and Catholicism snapped to the left.
Yay history. Er, and religion.
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"The document said that Orthodox churches were indeed "churches" because they have apostolic succession and enjoyed "many elements of sanctification and of truth." But it said they do not recognize the primacy of the pope — a defect, or a "wound" that harmed them, it said."
Dang, and here I always thought it was Christ who had "primacy" in the church. I guess once the pope gives himself to atone for the sins of the world and conquers sin and death with his own resurrection then more churches would start to recognize his primacy...either that or he could publish a document that says he's the real top dog :baffled5wh:
Dang, and here I always thought it was Christ who had "primacy" in the church. I guess once the pope gives himself to atone for the sins of the world and conquers sin and death with his own resurrection then more churches would start to recognize his primacy...either that or he could publish a document that says he's the real top dog :baffled5wh:
Do you really ever have anything productive and/or intelligent to add Copenhagen, or are you just trying to replace tycobb as most annoying poster?
Cyclone62, if you're referring to this post:
...I should clarify that my comments were meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek. I recognize that not every utterance out of the Pope's mouth is infallible. I also understand that according to the doctrine of papal infallibility, not every pronouncement the Pope makes on church matters is considered infallible.
However, for practical purposes, the Pope's statements on matters of faith and church doctrine are considered the official position of the Catholic Church during his tenure. So, his comments about Protestant churches not being true churches are the official position of the Catholic Church on the matter. And, as I mentioned before, the Pope was not really saying anything new here. That has been the official position of the Catholic Church for countless generations.
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I was referring to his infallibility of his words being virtually what God means. I wasn't referring to your post BvK, as it's obvious as the head of the Catholic church, his word is the word of the church. I was referring to people insinuating that whatever the pope says is infallible, and as I read it, basically meaning the word of God.
Referring to:
Maybe I just misread these posts though (although I am virtually perfect, always right, and the smartest man alive :wink0st
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Referring to:
Maybe I just misread these posts though (although I am virtually perfect, always right, and the smartest man alive :wink0st
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I really think it is a fine example of the church making it about the church, rather than about God. Didn't Jesus have something to say about this exact type of thing?
I was referring to his infallibility of his words being virtually what God means. I wasn't referring to your post BvK, as it's obvious as the head of the Catholic church, his word is the word of the church. I was referring to people insinuating that whatever the pope says is infallible, and as I read it, basically meaning the word of God.
Referring to:
Maybe I just misread these posts though (although I am virtually perfect, always right, and the smartest man alive :wink0st
What about previous Popes that did not say that the Protestant churches did not have means to salvation. Weren't they infallible? If they weren't infallible, then doesn't that break down the whole belief that the Pope is infallible. This has always confused me. There must be contradictions between different Popes over the years.
Did the Pope say what we Protestants are supposed to do? I have some extra cash laying around...can we still buy indulgences??? Where are Leo X and Johann Tetzel when you need them???
Sorry...I'm just in a foul mood today...
I was referring to his infallibility of his words being virtually what God means. I wasn't referring to your post BvK, as it's obvious as the head of the Catholic church, his word is the word of the church. I was referring to people insinuating that whatever the pope says is infallible, and as I read it, basically meaning the word of God.
Referring to:
Maybe I just misread these posts though (although I am virtually perfect, always right, and the smartest man alive :wink0st
My comment on the end of the first post was a little sarcastic jab at the Pope. (I hope he's not a member of Cyclone Fanatic.) I'm not sure what the criteria for papal infallibility is, but I know it doesn't mean that everything the Pope says is the Word of God, nor does it imply he's free of sin.
Roy Munson: "Brother Thomas, you know what it says in the Bible about not forgiving people."
Thomas: "Why don't you tell us all what it says Brother Hezakiah."
Roy Munson: "Well, it's a... It's against it."
When the Pope speaks ex-cathedra = from the chair of Peter, is when his teaching is infallible to Christs true teaching. When a man sits in the Chair of Peter the Holy Spirit makes him Vicarius Christi (Latin: Vicar of Christ), just as he makes ordinary bread and wine into Christs, body, blood, soul, and divinty. The man’s outer appearance is unchanged, but his substance, his teaching of true faith and morals, is completely transformed.
What the Pope said is nothing new, that is why there are 100's of Protestant faiths to worship if you don't agree with Catholic teachings. I would think everyone feels their chosen religion/faith is the true faith, otherwise why would one follow that religion.
What the Pope said is nothing new, that is why there are 100's of Protestant faiths to worship if you don't agree with Catholic teachings. I would think everyone feels their chosen religion/faith is the true faith, otherwise why would one follow that religion.
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There are actually very few times when the pope makes a statement that is in essence infallible. If I remember correctly, all of the popes together have made "infallible" comments only a handful of times. For example, that the Bible is the word of God is one of the infallible statements that have been made. The criteria for making an infallible statement are quite high, as once it's said to be infallible, it must be accepted as holy law, and never able to be changed, otherwise it's not truly infallible.
I knew you were being sarcastic, but I also realize that many people have misconceptions about papal infallibility, such as that the pope is infallible, which just isn't true. I might be wrong, but I think a pope rejected the holocaust for a while, saying that the numbers "couldn't have added up." I forget if that was from the pope or a cardinal though.
Last I heard, a Christian believed that they were helpless in sin and belief in the resurrection for the forgiveness was all that matters. Jesus sat these principals before ANY church started and also didn't want division among churches.
Interesting stuff guys.
Just my two cents, but if anyone needs a reason to become Protestant just study the history of the Papacy (or more specifically the lives of the Popes). Stuff gets mighty juicy just before the Italian independence. Funny thing lately is that the Popes still have their hands in plenty of of the secular cookie jars. Where's Martin Luther when you need him....
Just my two cents, but if anyone needs a reason to become Protestant just study the history of the Papacy (or more specifically the lives of the Popes). Stuff gets mighty juicy just before the Italian independence. Funny thing lately is that the Popes still have their hands in plenty of of the secular cookie jars. Where's Martin Luther when you need him....
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Yes it's the Filioque clause. It actually was a major dispute which finally broke the East from the West. Filioque clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Good post by the way.
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