Izaiah Brockington commits

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SolarGarlic

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Because there is a risk...especially if you're trying to establish an identity and culture. Maybe not as big of a risk or concern if you're just using the job to get your feet wet and land a gig in the NBA. Or maybe it's the difference between someone with coaching experience and someone without.

When we know it worked out, it's dumb to ding Hoiberg's recruiting in hindsight. It could be argued in his favor just as easily. Recruiting is getting good players that help you win, go to class, add to your culture, and stay out of trouble. Pretty tough to discount Hoiberg's instant success there, but I see you're still hurt he left for the NBA.
 
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usedcarguy

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When we know it worked out, it's dumb to ding Hoiberg's recruiting in hindsight. It could be argued in his favor just as easily. Recruiting is getting good players that help you win, go to class, add to your culture, and stay out of trouble. Pretty tough to discount Hoiberg's instant success there, but I see you're still hurt he left for the NBA.

Good grief. :rolleyes: You COULD argue that.....IF you wanted to pivot to a different argument other than about what TJ has accomplished thus far. I could just as easily argue that the program probably could not have handled another season with Royce and possibly BDJ, But that would be another deflection from my original point and I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

I wasn't discounting Hoiberg's recruiting. Most programs would be tickled to get the players he got out of the gate. I was stating the reasons why TJ's to this point (at least on paper) have been better. For TJ to get the players he has, especially when considering that he's limiting his options to culture guys, speaks volumes. It's not a binary argument where because one is good, the other was has to be bad.
 
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qwerty

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Correct, Enaruna is very young for his class. Doesn't turn 20 until the end of June.

He turns 20 after Caleb Grill turns 21 for reference.
or for further reference, Patrick McCaffery is listed as a freshman and he is already 21. Murray kids are freshman and they turn 21 this summer. Enaruna is listed as a sophomore and he is a year younger than Murrays and P McCafe.
 

qwerty

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Shayok had shown way more than Enaruna. I wouldn't expect anything close to that type of impact, regardless of your similar "feeling."
Nor do I think he will as I stated 10-12 for TE while Shayok hit for 18.7. I think Shayok was about 50% over expectations (expected 12 ppg, did 18.7). If TE can do similar it would be expected for 6-8, score 9-12.
 

inCyteful

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Bohannon will get frustrated and punch him in the face like he did that Oregon player on that fast break and get T'd up.

Hold on - Oregon player disrespected the dean of Mens College Basketball Guards. You can't do that and JorBo had to send a message. If teams don't respect him this year he may not come back for his 7th year.
 
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CYEATHAWK

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(at least on paper)

culture guys

On paper Royce White, Chris Babb, Chris Allen and Korey Lucious beat anything TJ has recruited outside of maybe the KU transfer. Which, he has yet to live up to. So I'll give it a wash. And this isn't a good vs evil......this is just disagreeing that TJ is ahead of Fred at this point. Like I said, all things being equal everyone has to sit out like before.....I would say Fred did just as well. Especially considering he DID NOT have any head coaching and/or assistant coaching experience to sell anyone.

As for the word "culture"........please, give it a rest. Some of you have been drinking too much of CMC's bath water. The only culture that should be sold is one of winning. Hunter for example, was he wrong to buy into Prohm's culture.....but a genius to buy into TJ's? Because if you think so then you must start with the premise that Prohm was selling the culture of losing and these recruits couldn't see past his snake oil. So let's give that word a break because we don't need to go down that Cyclonefanatic/GMAC rat hole of being fine with "losing with integrity" anymore just because the coach is a swell guy.
 

CYEATHAWK

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Bohannon will get frustrated and punch him in the face like he did that Oregon player on that fast break and get T'd up.

I would say there might be some return fire if that were to happen. I would be good with that type of double "T"......and I hope TJ just gives him extra pushups as punishment.
 

cyclones500

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Like I said, all things being equal everyone has to sit out like before.....I would say Fred did just as well. Especially considering he DID NOT have any head coaching and/or assistant coaching experience to sell anyone.

True, Hoiberg almost certainly have done better in season 1 if White, Allen and Babb could've played immediately. Minimum, at least there'd be better depth. As for 'nothing to sell,' the fact he had played in NBA probably helped.

(Edit to add Babb.)
 
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bosco

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Chris Allen's name is being brought up a lot lately with IB's commitment. Are they similar players stylistically and should be expect the same kind of production from him as CA? I remember CA was a much heralded recruit at the time but seemed he never lived up to the hype. Not that he was bad. He did have above average production with moments of brilliance. Maybe the expectations were unjustly too high?
 

SolarGarlic

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Chris Allen's name is being brought up a lot lately with IB's commitment. Are they similar players stylistically and should be expect the same kind of production from him as CA? I remember CA was a much heralded recruit at the time but seemed he never lived up to the hype. Not that he was bad. He did have above average production with moments of brilliance. Maybe the expectations were unjustly too high?

Allen was much more of a shooter. He was playing really well by the end of his one year at ISU. He was the 45th ranked recruit out of HS, so a solid 4-star. I don't think his production was too out of line with expectations at that point in his career though. He had already played 3 years at MSU, so we kinda knew what we were getting.

Brockington is a little more physical and determined to get to the rim. He doesn't shoot nearly as many threes. Allen took 206 (!!!) threes in his one season with Iowa State. Brockington took 43 last season.
 

usedcarguy

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On paper Royce White, Chris Babb, Chris Allen and Korey Lucious beat anything TJ has recruited outside of maybe the KU transfer. Which, he has yet to live up to. So I'll give it a wash. And this isn't a good vs evil......this is just disagreeing that TJ is ahead of Fred at this point. Like I said, all things being equal everyone has to sit out like before.....I would say Fred did just as well. Especially considering he DID NOT have any head coaching and/or assistant coaching experience to sell anyone.

As for the word "culture"........please, give it a rest. Some of you have been drinking too much of CMC's bath water. The only culture that should be sold is one of winning. Hunter for example, was he wrong to buy into Prohm's culture.....but a genius to buy into TJ's? Because if you think so then you must start with the premise that Prohm was selling the culture of losing and these recruits couldn't see past his snake oil. So let's give that word a break because we don't need to go down that Cyclonefanatic/GMAC rat hole of being fine with "losing with integrity" anymore just because the coach is a swell guy.
Kalscheur,

I disagree. With the exception of Royce who was a certifiable head case, I don't think that argument carries water. You're trying to make an apples to apples comparison between transfer players and two 4 star HS kids who haven't stepped on the court. The expectations of Babb, Allen, and Lucious were higher than Brockington, Kalscheur, Lipsey, King, and Hunter? No way.

I probably should have used the word character rather than culture. But that doesn't take away from the fact that TJ still got his players without having to make the reaches Fred did. Nor is it saying Fred only recruited kids of questionable character. He had some great ones. Babb is one example. And it has nothing to do with a coach getting a recruit to "buy in." I'm sure Cameron Lard had bought in the day he stepped on campus, and we all know how that worked out. TJ hasn't had to recruit those kind of players, and it's quite possible that he learned under Fred that it's better to avoid them if you want to build a sustainable culture.

Say what you will about Campbell's "bath water," but that's the difference between kids being gym rats on a Saturday night versus partying off campus and getting in trouble with the law. It's paying dividends today, and that winning has led to higher quality recruits in each of his subsequent seasons here. It may be easier to build a winning team in basketball than football, but it still works.

As for all of Fred's having to sit, well...IDK. Everyone was in the same boat then as everyone is in the same boat now. Immediate eligibility would have led to more competition. Gotta imagine more programs would have been more likely to take a transfer knowing you didn't have to use a scholarship on a kid who couldn't play for a year. Fred's performance thus far in Lincoln seems to back that up. But as a comparison, I was comparing the groups as a whole, treating King and Lipsey as "sit-outs." I can only imagine what dealing with Royce during his sit out year was like.
 

SolarGarlic

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Kalscheur,

I disagree. With the exception of Royce who was a certifiable head case, I don't think that argument carries water. You're trying to make an apples to apples comparison between transfer players and two 4 star HS kids who haven't stepped on the court. The expectations of Babb, Allen, and Lucious were higher than Brockington, Kalscheur, Lipsey, King, and Hunter? No way.

I probably should have used the word character rather than culture. But that doesn't take away from the fact that TJ still got his players without having to make the reaches Fred did. Nor is it saying Fred only recruited kids of questionable character. He had some great ones. Babb is one example. And it has nothing to do with a coach getting a recruit to "buy in." I'm sure Cameron Lard had bought in the day he stepped on campus, and we all know how that worked out. TJ hasn't had to recruit those kind of players, and it's quite possible that he learned under Fred that it's better to avoid them if you want to build a sustainable culture.

Say what you will about Campbell's "bath water," but that's the difference between kids being gym rats on a Saturday night versus partying off campus and getting in trouble with the law. It's paying dividends today, and that winning has led to higher quality recruits in each of his subsequent seasons here. It may be easier to build a winning team in basketball than football, but it still works.

As for all of Fred's having to sit, well...IDK. Everyone was in the same boat then as everyone is in the same boat now. Immediate eligibility would have led to more competition. Gotta imagine more programs would have been more likely to take a transfer knowing you didn't have to use a scholarship on a kid who couldn't play for a year. Fred's performance thus far in Lincoln seems to back that up. But as a comparison, I was comparing the groups as a whole, treating King and Lipsey as "sit-outs." I can only imagine what dealing with Royce during his sit out year was like.

If you want to make an argument that Kalscheur/Brockington/Enaruna/Hunter/Kunc/Grill/Jones come with higher expectations than White/Allen/Babb/Booker, I think that's fair, but arguable.

I don't think Lucious is part of the conversation since he was the year after (along with Clyburn and Niang).

Whether they were "character reaches" or not really has no bearing on the argument. Especially when we KNOW the result (they weren't reaches). That's such a bizarre thing to hold on to. Reeks of "Right Way" Fran in IC.
 
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usedcarguy

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If you want to make an argument that Kalscheur/Brockington/Enaruna/Hunter/Kunc/Grill/Jones come with higher expectations than White/Allen/Babb/Booker, I think that's fair, but arguable.

I don't think Lucious is part of the conversation since he was the year after (along with Clyburn and Niang).

Whether they were "character reaches" or not really has no bearing on the argument. Especially when we KNOW the result (they weren't reaches). That's such a bizarre thing to hold on to.

None of them had played a minute at the time they were signed. If we are going to make comparisons, whether they're debatable or not, to be fair we need to view them in the same context...which is what we knew/know at the time of each. Hindsight skews the comparison and should be ignored. If we want to revisit this 3 or 4 years from now, that's a different story.

Apparently everyone's forgotten the concern at the time about the baggage that came with some of those signings. There was legitimate concern whether it was going to work out, and from what I heard in regards to Royce, it was FAR closer to not working out than most will ever know.

If the at the time perceived upside between the two groups were the same, the group without the character issues should be rated higher. TJ could have made an even bigger splash with this first class had he recruited under the same standards as Fred, but chose to not. That only reinforces the argument that he has out of the gate recruited at a higher level than Fred...which was my original point.