*** Official IOWA STATE Vs #2 Baylor Game(Day) Thread ***

[SolarGarlic]

Good looks are ones that you have a reasonable chance of making. Basketball is dynamic, things change from game to game. If a team is having a bad shooting night from 3pt range, then the offense has to adjust to something else or the team will not score enough points to win. On a bad shooting night, open 3pt looks aren't "good" looks.

ISU seems to approach the game as if it is static. They just bomb away night after night and hope for the best. The season is half over. The team is showing itself to not be a good consistent 3pt shooting team. It is what it is. The concerning thing is that there seems to be no strategy for scoring when 3pt shots aren't falling.

Someone else mentioned that BU also shot poorly from 3pt range...but they got 22 FT attempts to compensate. Fortunately for ISU, BU really didn't cash in on the advantage they gained at the FT line by hitting only 13-22. Even with that, BU outscored ISU by 10 at the FT line.

Open 3-pointers are almost always good looks. It's how you get the open looks that matters. Are you playing inside-out and shooting off the pass, or are you shooting off the dribble without working the ball around?

I think Hines tweeted something last night about Haliburton shooting in the low 20s off the dribble. He has range, but he's also been affected by the extended three point line. He's taking extremely deep threes off the dribble with a defender present. Those are bad looks.

But when we kick it out to him, and he shoots it off the pass, those are GREAT looks that he has to shoot and hit if we're going to win. We missed too many of those last night. We don't have the talent to create better looks than that. We bomb away because it's the best offense we are capable of creating in the half court.

Also, how many times did we pass up wide open looks in transition only to back it out and start our terrible half court offense?

 

[Statefan10]

Open 3-pointers are almost always good looks. It's how you get the open looks that matters. Are you playing inside-out and shooting off the pass, or are you shooting off the dribble without working the ball around?

I think Hines tweeted something last night about Haliburton shooting in the low 20s off the dribble. He has range, but he's also been affected by the extended three point line. He's taking extremely deep threes off the dribble with a defender present. Those are bad looks.

But when we kick it out to him, and he shoots it off the pass, those are GREAT looks that he has to shoot and hit if we're going to win. We missed too many of those last night. We don't have the talent to create better looks than that. We bomb away because it's the best offense we are capable of creating in the half court.

Also, how many times did we pass up wide open looks in transition only to back it out and start our terrible half court offense?

I noticed this too. We seemed reluctant to take the ball to the rim when in transition and I think it had to do with being scared about their rim protectors. However getting to the rim doesn't mean you have to take the shot. I thought there were times we could've driven it, drawn a couple of defenders and kicked it out for an open 3.

I remember vividly two times where we could've gotten Jackson going in transition but instead of pushing it, we'd pull it out and set up our offense.

 

[aauummm]

@aauummm so you think that the guys on the team are accepting failure?

You made two statements in that post, a positive one concerning the players and a negative one concerning the fans. It is possible for one to agree with the first statement and disagree to the second statement. So bottom line, I disagree with your opinion that the fans are accepting failure.

 

[IASTATE07]

You made two statements there in that post, one concerning the players and one concerning the fans. It is possible for one to agree with the first statement and disagree to the second statement.

He's not smart enough to understand that.

 

[jcisuclones]

You made two statements in that post, a positive one concerning the players and a negative one concerning the fans. It is possible for one to agree with the first statement and disagree to the second statement. So bottom line, I disagree with your opinion that the fans are accepting failure.

I believe some fans are accepting failure. Not all, but some. It happened, as well, under Paul Rhoads, even after the Kansas State meltdown.

 

[Statefan10]

I believe some fans are accepting failure. Not all, but some. It happened, as well, under Paul Rhoads, even after the Kansas State meltdown.

So what would you like us fans to do? Should we turn completely rabid and start sending emails / tweets to Jamie Pollard or Steve himself? Should we start GoFundMe pages to try and get enough money to buy out Steve's contract? Completely stop going to the games all together?

The types of programs that have fans that do such things rarely see success again or can sustain success. Good coaches are scared to go there because their AD's, fans, and boosters turn on them right when things turn south. We are not like those programs.

Also, comparing Steve to Paul Rhoads is extremely premature, especially considering Prohm has had far more success comparatively. Paul Rhoads last three seasons, he went 3-9, 2-10, and 3-9. Paul Rhoads couldn't recruit worth a lick, which is the complete opposite of Prohm, who's brought in some of the best recruiting classes here, one of them being next year's. If Prohm follows up this season with another bad one, then the conversation about his job probably gets started. Next year we will have a lot of talented freshman and all might be capable to play right away. We have young guys on the roster that have showed some promise this year. Prohm has shown the ability to be able to get good transfers (Shayok, Bolton). Let's just see how everything plays out.

 

[jmb]

Don't you mean "trajectory"? That's what all the cool kids are saying now. Am I happy we are .500.........not really. Am I going to eat lunch with the guy, except his hospitality then come on here and berate him......no. But I'm not you....someone who is closer to the program than anyone knows. So you must forgive this simpleton if right now all I can do is be supportive of the coach who gave his this:

just last season and the players he brought in to replace the talent he recruited and developed for not only the above but the 23 win season.......just last year. You want to throw in the towel just 10 months after that....4 games into this conference season.....go ahead. You want to come on here after every loss and throw water in Prohm's face....expect resistance. You don't like that.....go talk with your friends. Because until he shows the best he can do every year is 9th place i.e. Greg McD results.....he has my backing.

With those horses did he over or under achieve? That is the question I keep asking myself. I can't decide. I like the guy a lot. I am developing concerns about program.

I was in Chicago and we got pounded by UVa. I was in Milwaukee when we couldn't find the hoop at all. I have also been in KC when he won the tourney. It is a real mixed bag for me right now.

I genuinely missed how awful this season was going to be. It never occurred to me that this team was going to be .500 and not in tournament. Second time in three years is concerning.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Open 3-pointers are almost always good looks. It's how you get the open looks that matters. Are you playing inside-out and shooting off the pass, or are you shooting off the dribble without working the ball around?

I think Hines tweeted something last night about Haliburton shooting in the low 20s off the dribble. He has range, but he's also been affected by the extended three point line. He's taking extremely deep threes off the dribble with a defender present. Those are bad looks.

But when we kick it out to him, and he shoots it off the pass, those are GREAT looks that he has to shoot and hit if we're going to win. We missed too many of those last night. We don't have the talent to create better looks than that. We bomb away because it's the best offense we are capable of creating in the half court.

Also, how many times did we pass up wide open looks in transition only to back it out and start our terrible half court offense?

That's not really factually true. We have a top 30 offense that can't shoot. Our best offense is decidedly not that but if guys were shooting even somewhere close to expectations, we'd have a much different view of this team. The problem is that our guys that may be able to shoot at a good clip have other deficiencies and they don't get consistent run while guys that are mediocre shooters (Jacobsen, Nixon, Bolton) have to be on the floor for one reason or another.

 

[kingcy]

It also took Drew 5 years just to post a winning record. People forgot how long he's been there, 2003 was a long time ago. Baylor was very patient in letting him build it up and he largely succeeded for their standards. Hasn't really gotten over his hump yet (hasn't passed the S16 since 2012 and has missed the tourney twice since then), but he's otherwise been fairly consistent both in system and in results.

I would like to add he hasn't always been at the top of the conference. He has had ups and downs. This years team is full of upper class players also. For most programs its not always a smooth ride every year

 

[AuH2O]

I think its incredibly difficult to compare what Drew walked into (knowingly of course) with what was left to CSP. They aren't even close. Scott Drew has averaged 23.5 wins since Year 5 and I imagine that will only tick upward with this year's squad. He will have made the tournament in 9 of the last 13 years (including this year). In the other 4 years he went to the NIT three years (One championship and an additional appearance in the Championship game). Even in his worse year (after the first four years) they went 18-13 and just didn't accept a bid to the NIT.

Not trying to discount what Drew has done as I think he's a really good coach. Also, not trying to make excuses for Prohm, but...

Looking really quick at 24/7 and looking at the best recruits for ISU and Baylor and something really glaring stands out. I didn't look at it in close detail so don't get technical on me, but in the time Drew's been at Baylor, they have something like 20 guys that were top 100 or so nationally that are from Texas or Louisiana (mostly Texas) which has been traditional recruiting grounds for Baylor, UT and TAMU, especially in Bball while LSU has been largely bad or unstable.

In a similar period, between Prohm, Fred and the end of McDoormat, I see Foster from Iowa, THT from IL, and Thomas from WI that are top 100.

And of course there are a few guys like Carton and Wieskamp that were local top 100 guys that went elsewhere, but the top 100 guys local to Drew that went to UT and elsewhere are too many to count.

I don't want to try to say Drew isn't good, because he clearly is. But it's important to understand that access to local talent is not in the same galaxy at ISU as it at Baylor. You have to be a far superior recruiter at ISU to get talent even close to being on par with Baylor. Put it this way. A guy like Vital, who I think most consider a good glue guy, but not some highly touted talent, would be the 10th best ISU recruit of all time according to 24/7. Conversely, based on rating THT would be around 25th best of the Scott Drew era. Drew certainly deserves credit for recruiting and rebuilding that program, but that part of the country is absolutely loaded with high level talent.

 

[rochclone]

Not trying to discount what Drew has done as I think he's a really good coach. Also, not trying to make excuses for Prohm, but...

Looking really quick at 24/7 and looking at the best recruits for ISU and Baylor and something really glaring stands out. I didn't look at it in close detail so don't get technical on me, but in the time Drew's been at Baylor, they have something like 20 guys that were top 100 or so nationally that are from Texas or Louisiana (mostly Texas) which has been traditional recruiting grounds for Baylor, UT and TAMU, especially in Bball while LSU has been largely bad or unstable.

In a similar period, between Prohm, Fred and the end of McDoormat, I see Foster from Iowa, THT from IL, and Thomas from WI that are top 100.

And of course there are a few guys like Carton and Wieskamp that were local top 100 guys that went elsewhere, but the top 100 guys local to Drew that went to UT and elsewhere are too many to count.

I don't want to try to say Drew isn't good, because he clearly is. But it's important to understand that access to local talent is not in the same galaxy at ISU as it at Baylor. You have to be a far superior recruiter at ISU to get talent even close to being on par with Baylor. Put it this way. A guy like Vital, who I think most consider a good glue guy, but not some highly touted talent, would be the 10th best ISU recruit of all time according to 24/7. Conversely, based on rating THT would be around 25th best of the Scott Drew era. Drew certainly deserves credit for recruiting and rebuilding that program, but that part of the country is absolutely loaded with high level talent.

I get it that Iowa itself doesn’t produce the same talent as Texas. But the talent that exists from Louisiana to West Texas is not that different than the talent that exists within 5 hours of Ames. Chicago, Wisconsin, Minneapolis, and Iowa.

 

[CyBlock]

Good looks are ones that you have a reasonable chance of making. Basketball is dynamic, things change from game to game. If a team is having a bad shooting night from 3pt range, then the offense has to adjust to something else or the team will not score enough points to win. On a bad shooting night, open 3pt looks aren't "good" looks.

ISU seems to approach the game as if it is static. They just bomb away night after night and hope for the best. The season is half over. The team is showing itself to not be a good consistent 3pt shooting team. It is what it is. The concerning thing is that there seems to be no strategy for scoring when 3pt shots aren't falling.

Someone else mentioned that BU also shot poorly from 3pt range...but they got 22 FT attempts to compensate. Fortunately for ISU, BU really didn't cash in on the advantage they gained at the FT line by hitting only 13-22. Even with that, BU outscored ISU by 10 at the FT line.

Absolutely correct! When we don't make three's, we don't win. It was an ugly game with both teams shooting around 40% from the field, 25% from three, and in the 50's from the FT line. I'm not a fan of the "dribble and weave" offense we've been showing lately either. It looks like we're fiddling around with passing for 20 seconds and then we finally have 10 seconds to set up a play. I'm sure it's by design, but I'm looking for better shot selection out of that offense than what I've seen. And finally, not that the result would have turned out any better, but Bolton missing (I think) four FT's in a row when we were still at single digits might have made a difference with some strategy for the rest of the game?? On to Tech I guess. Anything can happen as there were a lot of upsets last night (Auburn being the biggest one). Still believe we have talent, but shots have to start falling.

 

[MeowingCows]

I would like to add he hasn't always been at the top of the conference. He has had ups and downs. This years team is full of upper class players also. For most programs its not always a smooth ride every year

If we wanna be real technical, I don't believe Drew has ever won or tied for the (reg. season) conference title. He's got a couple 2nd place finishes, but never at the top.

It kinda goes back to what I said about "over the hump". His teams have proven so far to have a ceiling of being in the top tier of the conference, and being around the S16/E8 area. However, what's remarkable about his time there is that he's fairly consistent about getting there and when you play his teams, you know what you're going to get each game. He doesn't hide his players or strats, he wins games primarily on recruiting/development and fit to his system. The amount of retained talent he keeps around does add up over time, and he always seems to have that "next man up" on the bench somewhere.

 

[AuH2O]

I get it that Iowa itself doesn’t produce the same talent as Texas. But the talent that exists from Louisiana to West Texas is not that different than the talent that exists within 5 hours of Ames. Chicago, Wisconsin, Minneapolis, and Iowa.

Sure, but for the most part you've got a massive metro within about a 1.5 hour drive from Waco. P6 programs within a 5 or so hour drive of that region are what - UT, TCU, TAMU, and Baylor. Maybe I'm missing some?

Sure if you look at all these metros that are 5-6 hours away from Ames like Chicago and Milwaukee it might be a similar number of players, but the number of P6 schools in that radius is much larger - ISU, Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Creighton, Minnesota, Illinois, Northwestern, Mizzou, Depaul, Marquette.

Big difference being 1.5 hrs from Dallas, 3 hrs from Houston, 2 from Austin and 3 from San Antonio vs. being 5.5 from Chicago or Milwaukee, 3 to Minneapolis, or KC, especially when you look at comparative density of P6 schools to compete with in the regions.

Not to mention, it's easy to say that ISU should be able to recruit Illinois, but that means Chicago, and it's not like you're just recruiting against NW, Illinois and Depaul. Madison, Ann Arbor, East Lansing, Bloomington are all a fair amount closer to Chicago than Ames, and Columbus is about the same. So you're going against the titans of the Big 10 trying to pluck a kid from Big 10 country.

 

[Statefan10]

With those horses did he over or under achieve? That is the question I keep asking myself. I can't decide. I like the guy a lot. I am developing concerns about program.

I was in Chicago and we got pounded by UVa. I was in Milwaukee when we couldn't find the hoop at all. I have also been in KC when he won the tourney. It is a real mixed bag for me right now.

I genuinely missed how awful this season was going to be. It never occurred to me that this team was going to be .500 and not in tournament. Second time in three years is concerning.

I think all things taken into consideration, Prohm has been quite in the middle as far as under achieving / over achieving. With a full year of recruiting under his belt, he might've been able to get a couple more capable players on the roster instead of essentially playing with 6 guys all year. In year two he did a great job of finding guys that complemented all of the seniors (Solo / Jackson), however in year 3 we saw that drop off. I'm not going to be mad that a new coach struggled in one year, especially when the best players were freshman. Year 4, a solid year overall with ups and downs throughout. Obviously you want to win an NCAA tournament game but who doesn't?

This year I understand why we're struggling. Losing technically 4 starters is not a recipe for success, especially when the guys coming in don't have much playing time together. I can also be critical with this year by saying Prohm probably missed on a couple of grad-transfer guys that could've helped the team and might've taken a leap on some other guys (We'll see on Johnson, we sort of know what we got on Nixon). I think Coach Prohm did a fantastic job in getting Bolton here, as well as recruiting the 2020 class to come to Ames. I think there is a lot of talent there and I think there is still young talent on the roster right now that's getting thrown to the wolves a little bit. I'm excited to continue to watch some of these guys grow, while also looking ahead with higher hopes next season.

If there was a hypothetical poll put out after Fred left, and the poll asked "Would you take three 23+ win seasons, three NCAA tournament appearances, one Sweet 16, and two Big 12 Tournament titles in the next five seasons?", I honestly think there would be a lot of people that would pick yes.

 

[Cy$]

They are very good and we are not very good. There's my take.

It's this kind of analysis that makes you say "wow, and somehow this website is free?"

Wow! Hows this website free?

 

[SolarGarlic]

That's not really factually true. We have a top 30 offense that can't shoot. Our best offense is decidedly not that but if guys were shooting even somewhere close to expectations, we'd have a much different view of this team. The problem is that our guys that may be able to shoot at a good clip have other deficiencies and they don't get consistent run while guys that are mediocre shooters (Jacobsen, Nixon, Bolton) have to be on the floor for one reason or another.

Our best offense is forcing turnovers and getting points in transition. Our halfcourt offense doesn't get us many easy points.

 

[CyBlock]

Sure, but for the most part you've got a massive metro within about a 1.5 hour drive from Waco. P6 programs within a 5 or so hour drive of that region are what - UT, TCU, TAMU, and Baylor. Maybe I'm missing some?

Sure if you look at all these metros that are 5-6 hours away from Ames like Chicago and Milwaukee it might be a similar number of players, but the number of P6 schools in that radius is much larger - ISU, Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Creighton, Minnesota, Illinois, Northwestern, Mizzou, Depaul, Marquette.

Big difference being 1.5 hrs from Dallas, 3 hrs from Houston, 2 from Austin and 3 from San Antonio vs. being 5.5 from Chicago or Milwaukee, 3 to Minneapolis, or KC, especially when you look at comparative density of P6 schools to compete with in the regions.

Not to mention, it's easy to say that ISU should be able to recruit Illinois, but that means Chicago, and it's not like you're just recruiting against NW, Illinois and Depaul. Madison, Ann Arbor, East Lansing, Bloomington are all a fair amount closer to Chicago than Ames, and Columbus is about the same. So you're going against the titans of the Big 10 trying to pluck a kid from Big 10 country.

I've actually been pleased with what we have taken out of the Chicago market, and that includes the Wisconsin area of Madison and Milwaukee. I think Danyiel Robinson has done a tremendous job with this region. I help to coach an AAU team here in Illinois, and I can tell you that the other coaches are extremely disappointed in the talent that leaves the area. I just laugh, as they know that the University of Illinois, etc. are not landing the top recruits, as I sport my ISU gear at every practice . Haven't figured out why these guys don't stay, but I don't care, as you can't argue with the players we've gotten such as Horton Tucker, Conditt, Griffin, Jackson, Jackson (x2) Haliburton, Lewis, Thomas, etc. The recruiting pipeline is wide-open to Chicago, and I think we're taking advantage of it the best we can.....

 

[Statefan10]

I've actually been pleased with what we have taken out of the Chicago market, and that includes the Wisconsin area of Madison and Milwaukee. I think Danyiel Robinson has done a tremendous job with this region. I help to coach an AAU team here in Illinois, and I can tell you that the other coaches are extremely disappointed in the talent that leaves the area. I just laugh, as they know that the University of Illinois, etc. are not landing the top recruits, as I sport my ISU gear at every practice . Haven't figured out why these guys don't stay, but I don't care, as you can't argue with the players we've gotten such as Horton Tucker, Conditt, Griffin, Jackson, Jackson (x2) Haliburton, Lewis, Thomas, etc. The recruiting pipeline is wide-open to Chicago, and I think we're taking advantage of it the best we can.....

The better Illinois continues to get better, the harder it will be to recruit the Chicago area. Not saying we won't be as successful, but it'll certainly be tougher.