No Troll What We'd Like to See Discussion

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SWCy13

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Good question, I hadn't done that, but it's interesting data. All of this data is from Basketball Reference and is straight Defensive Rating - how many points you give up per 100 possessions. No real reason for using this metric, it just happened to be on the page when I was looking back through results & rosters from each year.

14/15 - 109th
13/14 - 117th
12/13 - 171st
11/12 - 159th
10/11 - 111th

So Fred, the coach who players have pretty much said barely worked on defense in practice at all, by DRtg has 3 seasons that are better than the best defensive team that Prohm has put on the floor.

I should note that it is a pretty flawed statistic in that it doesn't adjust for tempo
I would not use that data.

It does not adjust for court and/or level of competition.

You should use Bart Torvik or KenPom for making that adjustment.

The #1 team in the country by that metric might be from a cruddy conference. I doubt even a good defensive team from the MEAC lasts long when Kansas is throwing everything they have at you like they did last night. Conference/competition matters.

For sure. Like I said it’s definitely flawed, it was just a convenient start on the page where I was looking up other information.

However, I think there is some value in looking at it in a year over year comparison. Especially considering ISU teams (and the Big 12 in general) have generally played similar styles over the past 7-8 yrs and the level of competition in the league has remained high.
 

CyCloned

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To me, this team not only lacked toughness. but they look poorly coached. Very predictable on offense. Very few ball fakes. Telegraph passes. No vocal leader. And so on.
I realize this is a limited roster but I don't think they are close to reaching their potential.

This team is a perfect example of what happens when you have a revolving door. Just way too many new parts, and too much talent lost to guys going pro. Guys like Jacobson are just serviceable player that can help with good players around him. Same can be said about Solo, Nixon, even Bolton. Unfortunately, there is only one really good player on the team. Now Bolton, Grill, Jackson, and Conditt look capable, but they are still young. Team desperately needs to find some shooters, and it appears that there are some on the way. This looked like a tough year that the team might be able to have some highs in. Now it just looks like a train wreck.
 

Sigmapolis

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I should note that it is a pretty flawed statistic in that it doesn't adjust for tempo


For sure. Like I said it’s definitely flawed, it was just a convenient start on the page where I was looking up other information.

However, I think there is some value in looking at it in a year over year comparison. Especially considering ISU teams (and the Big 12 in general) have generally played similar styles over the past 7-8 yrs and the level of competition in the league has remained high.

Fair enough.

I just prefer using the tempo/opponent adjusted stuff, especially when it is so readily available and gives you a much fairer picture of the situation.

I know the Big 12 has been relatively consistent the past decade, but even then, there are small variations in the quality of the conference year-to-year, and the quality of our non-conference schedule can vary, as well. The 2013-2014 team went undefeated in the non-con, but it had a relatively soft schedule (though the Iowa and Michigan games were big wins), for instance. We should prefer data that reflects all of that.

This year's team had a very difficult non-con, which is an unfortunate hindrance for an inexperienced team that was probably not up for the challenge.
 
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LincolnWay187

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I would like to see a 3 point shooter like Tyrus Mcgee or Dedric Willoughbee come in.
 

Dingus

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I just want to see some improvements and a willingness to make changes. Focus on a couple things, defensive rebounding, PnR defense, reducing bad shots, whatever it is, and make it a point of emphasis.

And if the answer is to bring someone new alongside him next year he better do so.
 

madguy30

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This team is a perfect example of what happens when you have a revolving door. Just way too many new parts, and too much talent lost to guys going pro. Guys like Jacobson are just serviceable player that can help with good players around him. Same can be said about Solo, Nixon, even Bolton. Unfortunately, there is only one really good player on the team. Now Bolton, Grill, Jackson, and Conditt look capable, but they are still young. Team desperately needs to find some shooters, and it appears that there are some on the way. This looked like a tough year that the team might be able to have some highs in. Now it just looks like a train wreck.

Wan't it said that next year's recruits really aren't strong shooters?
 

cycloneworld

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This group is soooo different from our past teams that changing our playing style is the only way we will have a chance at winning this year.

1. Quit casting up quick (mostly long/poor) threes when the opponent goes on a run. We actually fuel their momentum with the misses and feed their runs. Handle the ball and drive to the rim and try to get better shots or even free throws.

2. Quit rushing three point shots. Our shooters rarely get their feet set or bodies squared up properly. A rushed "open" shot is not a good shot.

Thoughts?

We are an awful 3 point shooting team. And it drives me insane that we continue to put up 25-30 attempts per game when we shoot 30%. We shoot 55% from 2 so any rational person could surmise that maybe we should focus more on 2s than 3s. But no.
 
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cycloneworld

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This team is a perfect example of what happens when you have a revolving door. Just way too many new parts, and too much talent lost to guys going pro. Guys like Jacobson are just serviceable player that can help with good players around him. Same can be said about Solo, Nixon, even Bolton. Unfortunately, there is only one really good player on the team. Now Bolton, Grill, Jackson, and Conditt look capable, but they are still young. Team desperately needs to find some shooters, and it appears that there are some on the way. This looked like a tough year that the team might be able to have some highs in. Now it just looks like a train wreck.

Exactly - this is what I've said over and over here. We had 4 NBA-type players on our team last year and went 9-9 in conference. This year we have 1. And this coach and staff have demonstrated that they don't have the ability to elevate talent. So until we get more talent or develop players into better talent, we are going to see things like we are seeing now unfortunately.
 
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Cydkar

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Let’s just make a few assumptions right away to frame the discussion:
  1. We aren’t going to crap on players. They are doing their best. I absolutely respect the heck out of every one of them, most of whom came from somewhere a long way away to a place they didn’t know to try and achieve a dream.
  2. Prohm isn’t going to get fired after this year.
  3. Hoiberg isn’t coming back.
  4. TH is going pro.
  5. This season, for all intents and purposes, is over. They can shuffle the pieces around on the team, start one guy over another, etc, but let’s be honest, it’s not going to make much of a difference.
Now, for what I’d like to see for 2021:
  1. Identity on defense. The departure of TH will be the last departing plus player on offense. For all of Prohm’s talk about being tough, gritty, defensive minded… he has not been able to effectively communicate it. He needs to fire an assistant and bring in a guy to instill that mindset in this team. If he doesn’t do this, he’ll be fired anyway and players will likely transfer out, so he needs to do this even if it drives guys away.
  2. Also on this, we tried a bunch of defenses yesterday that I thought were just doomed to failure. The Young/MJ two bigs doubling the opposing big was an alley oop machine. The zone was a disaster. That said, I think we need to lean into that zone next year. We go full Baylor. Foster/Conditt down low, Johnson or Blackwell on the edges, and a consistently feisty Jackson at the point. I honestly think we’ll have to play 90’s Knicks basketball, slow it down, grind it out, work from the inside out.
  3. We absolutely need Jackson to develop a 3 point shot. He’s struggling mightily right now but I like what I’m seeing from him from an effort and tenacity level. Honestly I think he’s the only guy actually playing like Prohm wants this team to right now.
If this team is going to have success going forward, the identity of the team needs to change. If it doesn’t next year and we roll the ball out the same way we are this year without TH, that’s going to be one of the worst teams in the modern history of the program. It’s up to Prohm to figure that out or get fired. I do think there are kids that want to defend the legacy of Hilton on this team and I’m sure this isn’t what they pictured when they signed up for this.

I also think we should honestly just be nice and not freak out the rest of the way. This year is what it is. No use getting pissed about it.

I like Steve but I no longer think he's the guy and I'm no longer invested until something precipitates my interest. I don't think a different roster next year will do that for me so I'm in wake me up when something good happens mode. I won't be renewing next season. My money will be towards football. Yes, I've checked out. I've not watched a second since the 1st half of the Iowa game. That effort disgusted me beyond repair such that I can't comment on the games since. I'm probably a "bad" fan but it is what it is. I have things to do that give me varying degrees of pleasure. Watching ISU basketball is no longer on the list.

All said, I would be tickled if Steve could turn it around.
 
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CloniesForLife

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I hate to say it but we need to get physical and muck up the game a little. K-State/WVU style. I don't love that style of bball but if we want to win some games this year we might need to go that route.
 
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Cyched

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I have things to do that give me varying degrees of pleasure

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BryceC

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I like Steve but I no longer think he's the guy and I'm no longer invested until something precipitates my interest. I don't think a different roster next year will do that for me so I'm in wake me up when something good happens mode. I won't be renewing next season. My money will be towards football. Yes, I've checked out. I've not watched a second since the 1st half of the Iowa game. That effort disgusted me beyond repair such that I can't comment on the games since. I'm probably a "bad" fan but it is what it is. I have things to do that give me varying degrees of pleasure. Watching ISU basketball is no longer on the list.

All said, I would be tickled if Steve could turn it around.

There is a big part of me that really would like to do this... but, ISU basketball...

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Cydkar

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There is a big part of me that really would like to do this... but, ISU basketball...

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I did it. I think getting older has more to do with it than anything. Losses used to tear me up. Having low expectations can lead to apathy, easily, as well. If we were expected to be really good this would be eating me up more than it is.
 

CycloneErik

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People keep talking about Prohm preaching defense.
There is a big part of me that really would like to do this... but, ISU basketball...

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I've thought this, too, and I remember when I thought @Cydkar was unreasonable for thoughts like that.
Then I got older and busier, and found that I just don't have time for terrible basketball when other stuff is there. I've only seen half of this year's games, and that's really a good rate right now.
 
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Tre4ISU

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Babb, McKay, Thomas, Hogue, Ejim, Edozie:D and probably more those are just the first that come to mind that played nasty defense. Especially Babb. He's so dreamy.

And McKay was the only one that did it with talent rather than attitude. That's the disappointing thing to me. You can be a competent defensive team without elite talent. I didn't say great, I said competent. Ball screens are really hard to guard but we are even in the vicinity of good at them and I'm not saying there isn't effort. To me it looks like paralysis by analysis and a big reason for that, I feel, is that we have no consistency in our method. I've read a lot of people who say you need to have one way of doing it and get good at it, THEN, maybe you can add more. We seem to change it up a lot and it looks like there's a whole lot of thinking going on rather than reacting.
 

Tre4ISU

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I did it. I think getting older has more to do with it than anything. Losses used to tear me up. Having low expectations can lead to apathy, easily, as well. If we were expected to be really good this would be eating me up more than it is.

Agree. ISU and Michigan sports used to be a huge priority. I think it's probably perspective and having other things in life but I just don't care as much anymore. I'm not skipping a round of golf with friends for a game. I'm not scheduling things around games. It's not apathy. I think it's just healthy prioritization. I also think there's a cynical part of me that has also realized that our society has made sports WAY too important.
 
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kkise

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Agree. ISU and Michigan sports used to be a huge priority. I think it's probably perspective and having other things in life but I just don't care as much anymore. I'm not skipping a round of golf with friends for a game. I'm not scheduling things around games. It's not apathy. I think it's just healthy prioritization. I also think there's a cynical part of me that has also realized that our society has made sports WAY too important.
I agree with the last line. I'll still go to games and I still will be angry with losses, but that doesn't affect me as much.

Thanks to BryceC for a good thread.