No Troll What We'd Like to See Discussion

[Tre4ISU]

Everyone has done a great job of outlining what we need to get better at but mine is much bigger picture. Prohm is so stubborn and resistant to change that he trots the same lineup, substitution patter, etc. out every game - no matter if its working or not. He let's the players take the same shots and make the same mistakes without any consequences.

You'd figure after you realize we aren't a good 3-pt shooting team that Prohm would adjust and tell the guys not to shoot so many 3s. But instead, we continue to jack up 25-30 3s per game. That makes no sense.

The definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results definitely applies here.

We don't have a choice on 3s. Teams aren't going to let us score inside the arc. Period. A quick glance at our profile says "Let them shoot, don't let them do anything else." When you are so clearly lacking in an area, D1 coaches are going to make you do that thing to win and when we've shot the 3 average, we win. If we're an average shooting team, it changes everything. Nixon and Bolton were 33 and 36 percent shooters in their last year. Why are they now like 26 and 28? That makes zero sense to me. Sure, they have taken some poor ones, but they aren't making the good ones either. If a guy's a 36% shooter, fire away. Then, you probably expect one of Jackson, Grill or Griffin and one of Young and Jacobsen to be in that 35-40 range and you hope one of those 5 turns into a 40% sniper. Instead, to a man, everyone is worse and significantly worse.

Early on, I thought this was going to be similar to 15/16 where good shooters happened to be in a funk early and it'd turn around, albeit to a lesser degree. It's not and I don't get it. This just doesn't really happen like this.

 

[isucyfan]

I've been a Prohm supporter up until the Florida A&M debacle, but now the only thing I can think of that might help is Trying Junk (defenses), Other Than Zone.

If you catch my drift.

 

[NickTheGreat]

I'm not one to question effort, but it seems like last years and this years teams don't have guys that really care.

Maybe I still miss Georges, Naz, Monte, etc. But it only looked like TH and Conditt and maybe one other guy was even sad that they lost.

I mean throwing down an alley-oop dunk over the benchwarmers with a minute left, down by 30, didn't sit well with me.

 

[Cy$]

Not trolling when I say I honestly don't care about a Prohm-led Iowa State Basketball program. Nothing will change with him at the helm. Full apathy mode has kicked in for me. I have enough competitive sports teams that I follow to keep me held over until he's gone.

Same, im done ********. You win @Macloney

 

[Cyclones125]

Let’s just make a few assumptions right away to frame the discussion:

1. We aren’t going to crap on players. They are doing their best. I absolutely respect the heck out of every one of them, most of whom came from somewhere a long way away to a place they didn’t know to try and achieve a dream.
2. Prohm isn’t going to get fired after this year.
3. Hoiberg isn’t coming back.
4. TH is going pro.
5. This season, for all intents and purposes, is over. They can shuffle the pieces around on the team, start one guy over another, etc, but let’s be honest, it’s not going to make much of a difference.

Now, for what I’d like to see for 2021:

1. Identity on defense. The departure of TH will be the last departing plus player on offense. For all of Prohm’s talk about being tough, gritty, defensive minded… he has not been able to effectively communicate it. He needs to fire an assistant and bring in a guy to instill that mindset in this team. If he doesn’t do this, he’ll be fired anyway and players will likely transfer out, so he needs to do this even if it drives guys away.
2. Also on this, we tried a bunch of defenses yesterday that I thought were just doomed to failure. The Young/MJ two bigs doubling the opposing big was an alley oop machine. The zone was a disaster. That said, I think we need to lean into that zone next year. We go full Baylor. Foster/Conditt down low, Johnson or Blackwell on the edges, and a consistently feisty Jackson at the point. I honestly think we’ll have to play 90’s Knicks basketball, slow it down, grind it out, work from the inside out.
3. We absolutely need Jackson to develop a 3 point shot. He’s struggling mightily right now but I like what I’m seeing from him from an effort and tenacity level. Honestly I think he’s the only guy actually playing like Prohm wants this team to right now.

If this team is going to have success going forward, the identity of the team needs to change. If it doesn’t next year and we roll the ball out the same way we are this year without TH, that’s going to be one of the worst teams in the modern history of the program. It’s up to Prohm to figure that out or get fired. I do think there are kids that want to defend the legacy of Hilton on this team and I’m sure this isn’t what they pictured when they signed up for this.

I also think we should honestly just be nice and not freak out the rest of the way. This year is what it is. No use getting pissed about it.

Why do so many people assume that there's no shot of Fred coming back? Other than the people that are butthurt he left to pursue his dream of coaching in the NBA, I was under the impression he left on good terms.

 

[Cyinthenorth]

I'm not one to question effort, but it seems like last years and this years teams don't have guys that really care.

Maybe I still miss Georges, Naz, Monte, etc. But it only looked like TH and Conditt and maybe one other guy was even sad that they lost.

I mean throwing down an alley-oop dunk over the benchwarmers with a minute left, down by 30, didn't sit well with me.

What was wrong with that? KU had guys in that were still hustling. You've already been showed up for 39 minutes, you don't want scrubs to make you look silly for the last 1. Besides, KU has walk-ons that would probably be on scholarship and seeing regular minutes on this ISU team.

 

[megamanxzero35]

Why do so many people assume that there's no shot of Fred coming back? Other than the people that are butthurt he left to pursue his dream of coaching in the NBA, I was under the impression he left on good terms.

I don't think it is that. I think its that he and his family didn't like living in a fish bowl in Ames. Also, how many coaches left a job only to return later? I'd guess very few in the last 20 years. Even fewer probably had success in their second stint.

 

[NickTheGreat]

What was wrong with that? KU had guys in that were still hustling. You've already been showed up for 39 minutes, you don't want scrubs to make you look silly for the last 1. Besides, KU has walk-ons that would probably be on scholarship and seeing regular minutes on this ISU team.

I'm okay with still playing and scoring points. But's it's kinda like running a full court press when up by 20+. Or when a FB team is down by 50 with a minute left, and call timeout to stop the clock.

 

[Cyfanisu]

Genuine question about the players because I'm just not on here as much and don't follow as much as I used too, but you say they are doing their best, but are they? We used to see posts from players like Naz on IG or Twitter shooting at the practice facility at 11 at night getting up hundreds of shots. Are these players doing that?

This
I remember when CSP first came to Iowa State, he said that he couldn’t believe how much his inherited players practiced, they were in the gym every chance they got. There’s no reason for our current team to be so poor at shooting. These are division I big 12 basketball players, they should be able to shoot an average/decent percentage. Do they not practice enough??

 

[CYdTracked]

Armchair coaching here but seems like we are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with our current offensive philosophy. It's painfully obvious we are not a good outside shooting team yet we keep jacking up a high volume of low percentage shots. Last night I thought we got some good looks at 3's but not many looked good once the player let it fly and at other times we forced a bad shot early in the shot clock. We can get away with that if we had a Tyrus McGee, Matt Thomas, or Naz Long type of player that can get hot with a high volume of shots but we just don't have a shooter anywhere close to that kind of player on this roster.

Personally, I wish we'd slow it down some and try to run the offense out of the post to create some lanes for cutters or at least get better looks when we do have to chuck up a 3. I'm ready for Jacobson to go to the bench and put Conditt in his place and run the offense through him and Solo in the post. If they can get some buckets in the paint early it could help the guards get some more breathing room to drive the lane or take a better shot from the perimeter.

And like many have mentioned this team needs to GET TOUGHER. We aren't gong to out-shoot teams like we have in the past, we're going to have to make more stops on defense and show more hustle on both ends to keep games within striking distance.

As for Prohm, I'm not part of the pitchfork gang ready to run him out of town yet. He's made the tournament 3 of 4 years and just had a 23 win season last year. Won 2 Big 12 tournaments, this season so far has been disappointing but not enough for me to be calling for a change already. If the trend continues then I think his seat gets hot if next year is bad too. He has a good class coming in next year so from a recruiting standpoint it's hard to argue he isn't bringing in talent but unfortunately the flip side of that is we're losing a lot of that to the pros early too so it feels like we are starting over every year with a new core. I will agree there are reasons to be concerned but I also think our fans have been a little spoiled in the past decade and have their expectations a little too high coming into this season. It's been a tougher season than I anticipated but I also came in thinking the ceiling was a bubble tournament team with all the players we lost from last year.

 

[ISUTex]

Unfortunately I'm to the point where I view it as the same song & dance every year with this coach. Prohm's teams consistently play with very low defensive energy despite what he preaches - this is either just him giving the fan base lip service, or a severe disconnect between him/his coaching staff and the players. I would argue that given the talent he either inherited, or to his credit with last year's class, brought in, he's underachieved or just had bad teams every year he's been here:

15/16 - With a team that had 5 NBA players on it, 191st in Defensive Rating, 10-8 in the Big 12, and a Sweet 16 berth that was handed to them with victories over a 13 & 12 seed. Complete no-show in the 1st half vs Virginia in the Sweet 16.

16/17 - By far Prohm's best coaching job, though not without significant flaws. 4 NBA players. 127th in Defensive Rating. Another complete no show in the 1st half and took him far too long to adjust to playing small vs Purdue in the Round of 32.

17/18 - This was always going to be a rebuilding year, but horrible defense still a trend - 287th in Defensive rating. Also lost to Milwaukee by 18 points in Hilton.

18/19 - 4 NBA/G League players. 125th in Defensive Rating. 9-9 in the Big 12, underachieved all year. Inconsistent effort and poor decision making by the team all year. Butchered the Lindell Wigginton injury situation. Lost to an average-bad Ohio State team.

19/20 - Dumpster Fire. Lottery pick @ PG. 185th in Defensive Rating. Worst loss in program history. Heading towards the second last place Big 12 finish in the last 3 years.

Obviously this is a more negatively-skewed view of things, but I wouldn't say it's harsh in any way. We haven't finished better than 125th in Defensive Rating (out of 351 teams) in any of Prohm's years. And we've consistently had NBA level players and have 1 Sweet Sixteen, in which we had to beat two mid-majors to get there, to show for it. I just don't see a ton of light at the end of the tunnel unless there's a coaching change.

I'm interested in the defensive ratings for Hoiberg's teams. Any way to find those? Where they better or worse than Prohm?

 

[TheHonestCycloneFan]

A lot of people have echoed that defensive adjustments need to be made, and that certainly cannot be disputed. But establishing a defensive philosophy is more than just teaching the fundamentals, it involves creating a culture. Look at Virginia and WVU. And creating a culture that focuses primarily on defense takes away from one of the core selling points Iowa State has been able to sell to recruits, which is playing in a high octane offense. That is not to say defense should not be emphasized or instituted. Ideally, I would like Iowa State to be an average defensive team at minimum. But I would like to see the program get back to being a high scoring machine. And that involves putting players in the best positions to be successful on the court, finding the right recruits for the program, and having your players buy in.

I'm not sure if Prohm and his current staff can stop this sinking ship but in the meantime I would like to see players like Conditt getting the bulk share of the minutes moving forward. He can tinker with some lineups and see who plays well with each other and who doesn't. If this is a lost season, why not play Zion and Terrence and try to help them develop with in game experience? Emphasize selflessness and effort to guys who are playing. It would be better to create these habits now so that the returning players can can help guide the incoming class.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Prohm guys seem to either be busts, role players, or off to the pros early.

We were really blessed with a generation of great college players under Hoiberg who, for individual reasons, never went pro early (save for Royce).

 

[ClonesFTW]

Anyone who jumps up in the air to make a pass in practice should immediately be awarded 4 laps around the court.

 

[heitclone]

Everyone has done a great job of outlining what we need to get better at but mine is much bigger picture. Prohm is so stubborn and resistant to change that he trots the same lineup, substitution patter, etc. out every game - no matter if its working or not. He let's the players take the same shots and make the same mistakes without any consequences.

You'd figure after you realize we aren't a good 3-pt shooting team that Prohm would adjust and tell the guys not to shoot so many 3s. But instead, we continue to jack up 25-30 3s per game. That makes no sense.

The definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results definitely applies here.

I don't think he's stubborn, I think he's extremely limited. He came up in an established program where all he had to do was keep things between the lines, essentially has a template he's trying to use, if that doesn't work. He's s.o.l. He's just in over his head going head to head against the type of coaches he faces in the big 12.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I'm interested in the defensive ratings for Hoiberg's teams. Any way to find those? Where they better or worse than Prohm?

Not really. They were about the same.



Prohm = 138, 54, 111, 49, 75
Hoiberg = 60, 71, 130, 58, 86

Prohm average = 85.4
Hoiberg average = 81.0

 

[cyputz]

DEFENSE and TEAM — I would much rather see a player get a bloody lip from aggressive defensive play and see the team rally around. BB is a TEAM game. If they want a fast passed game the better get damn aggressive

 

[Inthesystem]

They’ve missed a ton of them but you can’t really blame the players for taking an open 3.

 

[SWCy13]

I'm interested in the defensive ratings for Hoiberg's teams. Any way to find those? Where they better or worse than Prohm?

Good question, I hadn't done that, but it's interesting data. All of this data is from Basketball Reference and is straight Defensive Rating - how many points you give up per 100 possessions. No real reason for using this metric, it just happened to be on the page when I was looking back through results & rosters from each year.

14/15 - 109th
13/14 - 117th
12/13 - 171st
11/12 - 159th
10/11 - 111th

So Fred, the coach who players have pretty much said barely worked on defense in practice at all, by DRtg has 3 seasons that are better than the best defensive team that Prohm has put on the floor.

 

[cb1030]

What would I like to see...

Basketball worth watching pretty much sums up my wants. Hoiberg's first team was fun to watch even though they weren't very good. There was an energy and effort coming from the players on the court that you could really get behind even if they were underdogs in every conference game.

I've gone from having season tickets and attending damn near every home game from 2012-2018 to honestly not even watching half the games this year. I'm apathetic, and really, Steve's teams have been trending this direction for a few years now. We all know this isn't getting better. Why prolong and exacerbate the damage? I get that there's a money issue from a contract standpoint but you have to ask if that truly matters when you look at where we're headed if we stick with him for years to come.