Is Lewis injured because

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Steve

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These raw plus/minuses are absolutely awful metrics, they don't take into account what the player did on the court at all. Haliburton had a triple-double but since he played every minute of the game his +/- was guaranteed to be the final score differential, -2. That is in no way representative of the kind of game he had. Similarly, Conditt's was -4. Jacobson had the best with +6...if only everyone else matched his numbers...??
It's true that no single stat in a box score captures the true value of what a player is doing right or wrong when they are in the game. Over time, however, the plus/minus ranking has value worth giving weight to. While it might not fully credit individual great plays like Haliburton delivers, it does tend to flag a pattern of mistakes that lead to defensive breakdowns that make it hard to get stops. You don't win games by contributing 10 points if you have defensive mistakes that allow 15 easy points for the opponent.

The best player evaluation system needs to be much more extensive than any single stat. LE would breakdown and quantify almost every action that a player would take or fail to take during the game. The typical player would be graded on over 200 evaluation points in a game.
 

Sigmapolis

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These raw plus/minuses are absolutely awful metrics, they don't take into account what the player did on the court at all. Haliburton had a triple-double but since he played every minute of the game his +/- was guaranteed to be the final score differential, -2. That is in no way representative of the kind of game he had. Similarly, Conditt's was -4. Jacobson had the best with +6...if only everyone else matched his numbers...??

That is why you should use NET instead of +/-.

These NET scores --

upload_2020-1-7_2-11-10.png

= pretty close to how that game felt player-by-player.

Tyrese was great. Conditt and Bolton were okay. Nixon had a good game by his standards, Young was alright, and things are just not clicking for Jacobson right now.

I want to love you, Tre Jackson III, and maybe you will get there someday (as I hope), but you shot us out of that game yesterday. You went 0/3 on three good looks. If you hit any one of them, we win that. So the system docks him.
 

bthebutcher

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Sep 8, 2015
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It's true that no single stat in a box score captures the true value of what a player is doing right or wrong when they are in the game. Over time, however, the plus/minus ranking has value worth giving weight to. While it might not fully credit individual great plays like Haliburton delivers, it does tend to flag a pattern of mistakes that lead to defensive breakdowns that make it hard to get stops. You don't win games by contributing 10 points if you have defensive mistakes that allow 15 easy points for the opponent.

The best player evaluation system needs to be much more extensive than any single stat. LE would breakdown and quantify almost every action that a player would take or fail to take during the game. The typical player would be graded on over 200 evaluation points in a game.
You have no clue what you're talking about.
 
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bthebutcher

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That is why you should use NET instead of +/-.

These NET scores --

View attachment 69583

= pretty close to how that game felt player-by-player.

Tyrese was great. Conditt and Bolton were okay. Nixon had a good game by his standards, Young was alright, and things are just not clicking for Jacobson right now.

I want to love you, Tre Jackson III, and maybe you will get there someday (as I hope), but you shot us out of that game yesterday. You went 0/3 on three good looks. If you hit any one of them, we win that. So the system docks him.
Absolutely. These advanced stats are really great.
 

AuH2O

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Imagine if he had any kind of shooters with him
Not to mention it would be a HUGE benefit to Bolton. He is so quick getting to the rim, and that's without a lot of space to operate many times because defenders don't have to respect our outside shooting.
 
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Cyinthenorth

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Not to mention it would be a HUGE benefit to Bolton. He is so quick getting to the rim, and that's without a lot of space to operate many times because defenders don't have to respect our outside shooting.
He's just so short. Love how he gets to the rim, but he's even smaller than LW and LW could hardly ever finish at the rim.
 

enisthemenace

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Not to mention it would be a HUGE benefit to Bolton. He is so quick getting to the rim, and that's without a lot of space to operate many times because defenders don't have to respect our outside shooting.

This is so true. Bolton is really good getting to the rim and getting layups off quickly (most times). The only “issue” I see with his driving ability is he seems reluctant to pass anywhere once gets past the primary defender. Against TCU, he had opportunities to dump to other diving to the basket when the secondary defender came to help, but didn’t. Led to a couple of his shots being blocked. Just something I’d like to see more of. Bolton, for the most part, has looked a lot better when attacking. Just passing off every once in a while would take his ability to penetrate to the next level. IMO.
 

CloniesForLife

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Bolton is a better finisher than LW. Better body control. Just needs to dump it off every once in awhile when the secondary defender comes over to help his man.
Yup he got blocked by Samuels multiple times in the 2nd half. Would've been nice if he adjusted a little. Hopefully it is something he develops!
 

CloniesForLife

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That is why you should use NET instead of +/-.

These NET scores --

View attachment 69583

= pretty close to how that game felt player-by-player.

Tyrese was great. Conditt and Bolton were okay. Nixon had a good game by his standards, Young was alright, and things are just not clicking for Jacobson right now.

I want to love you, Tre Jackson III, and maybe you will get there someday (as I hope), but you shot us out of that game yesterday. You went 0/3 on three good looks. If you hit any one of them, we win that. So the system docks him.
Where is this from? Barttorvik?
 

Clonefan32

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Nov 19, 2008
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That is why you should use NET instead of +/-.

These NET scores --

View attachment 69583

= pretty close to how that game felt player-by-player.

Tyrese was great. Conditt and Bolton were okay. Nixon had a good game by his standards, Young was alright, and things are just not clicking for Jacobson right now.

I want to love you, Tre Jackson III, and maybe you will get there someday (as I hope), but you shot us out of that game yesterday. You went 0/3 on three good looks. If you hit any one of them, we win that. So the system docks him.

I like Tre alot and appreciate his defensive effort. I think you also have to be careful about damaging a freshman's confidence. With that said, I don't think he's at a point where we can have him out there at critical moments. We can't afford to have another non-shooter. Who we would have out there instead is an entirely different conversation, but if Tre is playing 28 minutes we have an issue.

I also just don't think this team can succeed with Zion playing better. I almost think you have to give him minutes and hope something clicks.
 

Sigmapolis

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I like Tre alot and appreciate his defensive effort. I think you also have to be careful about damaging a freshman's confidence. With that said, I don't think he's at a point where we can have him out there at critical moments. We can't afford to have another non-shooter. Who we would have out there instead is an entirely different conversation, but if Tre is playing 28 minutes we have an issue.

I also just don't think this team can succeed with Zion playing better. I almost think you have to give him minutes and hope something clicks.

We played most of the game on Saturday with --

Haliburton
Jackson
Bolton
Nixon
Conditt

That lineup is super small but gave a modicum of space for Bolton to attack the rim and the Haliburton/Conditt PnR to operate, so I think we might be locking into it.

People ask what the Prohm identity is. I think it is the 4/1 and elite PG play, if it is anything, and we are trying to recreate that somehow right now.

The problem is your last guard is going to be one of Jackson, Grill, Lewis, and Griffin. I am not sure any one of those four is really ready right now or, in a few cases, if a few of them will ever be ready. But you go to war with the army you have.
 
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Clonefan32

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We played most of the game on Saturday with --

Haliburton
Jackson
Bolton
Nixon
Conditt

That lineup is super small but game a modicum of space for Bolton to attack the rim and the Haliburton/Conditt PnR to operate, so I think we might be locking into it.

People ask what the Prohm identity is. I think it is the 4/1 and elite PG play, if it is anything, and we are trying to recreate that somehow right now.

The problem is your last guard is going to be one of Jackson, Grill, Lewis, and Griffin. I am not sure any one of those four is really ready right now or, in a few cases, if a few of them will ever be ready. But you go to war with the army you have.

Totally agree. I just go back to Prohm speaking highly of the steps forward Zion had made. You would sure think that's in there somewhere. With no great option for the 4th guard I almost wonder if you don't try to "force" Zion into being that guy. Give him the minutes and see if he can play his way into form.

With the way he was talked about pre-season I can't imagine anyone anticipated him only playing 5 minutes in a conference game.
 
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madguy30

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Bolton is a better finisher than LW. Better body control. Just needs to dump it off every once in awhile when the secondary defender comes over to help his man.

When LW just let the game come to him and played within it he was truly great.

But throwing yourself into the middle and sprawling out for nothing but a foul over and over again became pretty baffling.
 

Sigmapolis

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When LW just let the game come to him and played within it he was truly great.

But throwing yourself into the middle and sprawling out for nothing but a foul over and over again became pretty baffling.

LW was overrated going to the rack. He was a turnover machine, and I think we should call that series where a guard drives, gets up in the air, obviously doesn't have a plan, tries to make something up and turns it over, the "Wigginton" going forward.

Underrated shooter, though -- we could use a 40% guy right now.

Bolton is the opposite. Genuinely good going to the rack, but not a great shooter.
 
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moores2

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Lewis' PER and BPM ratings on Sports-Reference are 3rd highest on the team among the scholarship players (behind Hali and Conditt). Tre Jackson has a PER of 4.9 and BPM of -1.2. Both are worst on the team.
You have to take into account the level of competition he has played against. Played his most minutes against Florida A&M.