Steve Prohm
- Thread starter tyler24
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That team had Shayok, THT, and Wigginton on it. That should be enough to go to the Sweet Sixteen if not farther.
It's hard to win championships. However, we under-performed with the crazy amount of talent we had.
I have been very positive about Prohm and many times have backed him up in arguments. I don't want to overreact after one game, but performances like Tuesday are going to make it very hard to continue to support him as a coach. I know he wants the best for this team and program, but losses like that make it hard to assume he's going to be able to put good seasons together year in and year out. The more those losses happen, the more it seems like maybe last year was actually an outlier? I really hope I'm wrong and this season can net some positives and at least give us some sort of hope.
Before going to any extremes, I'm going to let this season play out and try to stay level headed. If we start out the conference season 2-0 somehow and beat KU, I'm not going to come on here and throw it in anyone's face that Prohm beat KU. So we beat TCU and KU.. awesome. Now go beat the next two teams or at least put a team out on the court that is competitive enough to have a chance to win the next two games.
I wasn't going crazy or questioning Prohm when we were losing to Michigan or losing to Seton Hall, but that loss against FAMU was abysmal. It was absolutely embarrassing. And sure, Coach Prohm isn't the one out there missing the shots or playing the poor defense but it's his players out there doing it. Him and his team just made it much much harder on themselves to try and make the NCAA tourney. A win @ Auburn and an above .500 record in the Big 12 would probably get us in but that task looks basically impossible at this moment with the product that has taken the floor the past few games. Prohm and this team are going to have to completely flip the script. We'll see if they can do that.
People forget just how good Marial Shayok was for us. Not only did he score about 20 a night, he also took up multiple defenders so others had easy shots. There is a reason he went from a mostly unknown transfer to getting drafted. He was dominant and if he played for ISU more than one year, he would probably be one of the all-time greats.
Edit: And when Marial had a bad game... woof, we were terrible.
As far as "flipping the script", I have not seen any evidence in the last 3 seasons to believe that we will EVER see Prohm make those changes.
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No doubt Marial was great for us, but I'm not going to bash Prohm one year for not having good players and then not give him the credit when good players come here and play well. Marial Shayok was Prohm's guy and he was a tremendous get for the team last year. Credit to Prohm for getting him here and credit to Shayok for putting in the work to be the player he was.
And I would agree that I'm not confident we're going to change much this year, but I'm going to wait and see because that's all we can really do right? The reality is that Prohm is not going to get fired this year.. it's not going to happen. His teams, regardless of whether or not he should've gone farther with them, have done pretty well for 3/4 years he's been the coach. However, this season being a flop would then be 2/3 years that have been terrible. If we completely fall apart this year and next year is another "rebuilding year", I don't see Prohm being the coach the following season. If we want to be considered a basketball school and continuously put teams into the NCAA tournament, then you can't have rebuilding years every other year and possibly two years in a row.
I will preface this with reiterating the FL A&M loss was horrifying and has greatly shaken my faith in the direction of the program. That said --
You have no evidence for this. Fred's current Nebraska team is #148 overall and #165 in adjusted defense on Bart Torvik right now -- they suck at it.
He was not interested in staying, however, and you do not need "hypothetical Fred" to beat up Prohm anymore. The FL A&M **** up speaks for itself.
See my previous comment -- he was not interested in staying and either wanted to try coaching in the NBA, wanted NBA money, or some combination.
Even then, there's no guarantees recruiting would have improved in the way you posit there and/or that Fred would have learned how to coach defense better or put any additional emphasis on it. If I had to guess, Fred keeps being Fred -- he's the Mike Leach of college basketball, always having an exciting offense that wins a lot of games yet an iffy defense that costs them a few, leads to inconsistency, and holds them back from a truly elite tier. It would still have been fun, but it would still lose to teams like UAB on occasion.
There is no evidence to suggest it *was* going to get better, though. You are the one who has to provide the extraordinary evidence that something was going to be substantially different going forward on defense, and you have none.
Check the ADJD ratings on KenPom or Bart Torvik for the teams in the Final Four and that win regular season conference championships.
It matters a ton.
You have no evidence for this. Fred's current Nebraska team is #148 overall and #165 in adjusted defense on Bart Torvik right now -- they suck at it.
He was not interested in staying, however, and you do not need "hypothetical Fred" to beat up Prohm anymore. The FL A&M **** up speaks for itself.
See my previous comment -- he was not interested in staying and either wanted to try coaching in the NBA, wanted NBA money, or some combination.
Even then, there's no guarantees recruiting would have improved in the way you posit there and/or that Fred would have learned how to coach defense better or put any additional emphasis on it. If I had to guess, Fred keeps being Fred -- he's the Mike Leach of college basketball, always having an exciting offense that wins a lot of games yet an iffy defense that costs them a few, leads to inconsistency, and holds them back from a truly elite tier. It would still have been fun, but it would still lose to teams like UAB on occasion.
There is no evidence to suggest it *was* going to get better, though. You are the one who has to provide the extraordinary evidence that something was going to be substantially different going forward on defense, and you have none.
Check the ADJD ratings on KenPom or Bart Torvik for the teams in the Final Four and that win regular season conference championships.
It matters a ton.
I can see him injecting Conditt into the starting lineup or something, but late game situations etc. won't be any different.
Conditt alongside a competent 4 would be incredible.
We just lack the 4 man.
And 4 man, I mean a rangy wing, not a second post.
We had a bevy of those last year in Shayok, THT, and NWB.
We got nothin' this year.
That was ******* embarassing. There was absolutely no correction once FAMU was told to attack passing lanes.
Offensive sets consisting of a 3 man weave ending with Jacobson standing at the top of the arc shot faking (which no defender with a brain would bite on) or taking a garbage ******* 3. No understanding of momentum inside Hilton.
After the Iowa game I figured we would just see zones all year because the team cannot initiate the half court with anything but ball screens beyond the arc. Turns out the offense can't even hold up against man either. Give Bolton the ball and tell him to drive and kick. Start Conditt over Jacobson. If you can't figure out how to use 2 bigs (on a roster you assembled) then great you've got 3 guys fighting for one spot.
At this point maybe my seat upgrade request finally gets approved next year.
Offensive sets consisting of a 3 man weave ending with Jacobson standing at the top of the arc shot faking (which no defender with a brain would bite on) or taking a garbage ******* 3. No understanding of momentum inside Hilton.
After the Iowa game I figured we would just see zones all year because the team cannot initiate the half court with anything but ball screens beyond the arc. Turns out the offense can't even hold up against man either. Give Bolton the ball and tell him to drive and kick. Start Conditt over Jacobson. If you can't figure out how to use 2 bigs (on a roster you assembled) then great you've got 3 guys fighting for one spot.
At this point maybe my seat upgrade request finally gets approved next year.
It’s really tough to hold Prohm accountable for Shayok’s streakiness. At times, on fire, other times nonexistent.
Using stats from Fred's first year at Nebraska is laughable. He dumped that whole team. Fred is trying to rebuild a historic dumpster fire over there. His stats at ISU speak for themselves. His defense was better than prohms and trending upward over his last few years. take out the first year here where he was full rebuild mode with McDermott scraps and it isn't even close between the 2 coaches.
1.) Looking at Hoiberg’s first year at NU to what would have been a mature program at ISU is bad. Shame on you.
2.) Right, but any conversation about Hoiberg at ISU now, requires a different Hoiberg. Do you not realize the fundamentals of conversation you joined or the basics of a thought experiment? Who mentioned Prohm? Is he on Hoiberg’s staff in this hypothetical? Also, bringing up valid criticisms of Prohm has NEVER been about Hoiberg, but rather where the program was headed under Prohm. Perhaps now you finally will see that. You continue to resort to Hoiberg vs Prohm, which has you increasingly fabricating what Hoiberg’s future would have been based on delusion and irrelevant metrics.
3.) See my previous comment.
4.) There is no actual evidence to suggest it wouldn’t have gotten better, which was contended earlier in the thread. The fact someone said that without “evidence” is why I responded with plausible reasons why it could have. The trend was there as Hoiberg stocked his roster with better athletes. And it didn’t need to be substantially different. A modest difference would have been big in terms of impact. Hoiberg improving and adding flexible athletes like Nader, Burton, NWB, and posts like McKay is just as much evidence that the defense would have taken another step, as madguy has to suggest it would not have changed.
5.) Of course it matters. What’s overblown is how bad it was. Hoiberg, for not caring about it as some claim, was better at defense than most realize.
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Honestly, based on his history, I don’t see him changing anything baring an injury.
yeah, ive been on the prohm bandwagon, and im not abandoning yet, but that was so fkn bad.
its laughable how bad it was.
As a stringent Prohm backer, I'm shook. Let's see how the season plays out but Tuesday night was awful. The worrisome part isn't the lose in itself. Weird **** happens. The worrisome part is it wasn't flukey.
I'm not holding him accountable for Shayok's streakiness. I'm holding him accountable for relying on Shayok's streakiness.
Sorry but Jacobsen needs to play 10 mins a game as a rest for Conditt or Young. He's not an upgrade in any area over those two.
You may be right, but, I would LOVE to see us try a 2nd post - Solo & George on the court at the same time. We didn't lose Tuesday due to scoring - we lost because we could not defend in the 2nd half (46 points to F A&M?!?! - OMG!) and gave up a ton of 6' jump shots and gave up 8 offensive rebounds because we play small....Again, why the hell doesn't CSP try something different when things are falling apart? If this team can't out-score the other team like Hoiberg's teams, then they sure as hell better play better defense!
I have been a Prohm supporter but if he doesn't start shaking up rotations a bit I will be shocked. Jacobsen cannot play the 4.
