Generation Y and Z Debt

[ImJustKCClone]

Do you play Sweet Caroline or not? That is the question.

Yup, when appropriate. And I watch the student sections at FB AND MBB participate in it enthusiastically.
End of derail!

Edit - Just realized what you were asking. OHELLNO, not in the 3rd Q stretch. Only after a win - particularly a BIG win.

 

[Sigmapolis]

and the big thing I think that's often missed with the bolded is this works just like compounding interest. The later they are able to actually start building wealth and not just paying off debt, the worse off they are down the line. The later they buy a house. Newer car. Save for retirement. Save for their own child's education.

We narrowed it down that the average undergraduate has student loans somewhere between the value of a decent used Camry or a brand new Camry.

That might not be ideal, but it should not be financially crippling.

Considering the earnings premium afforded to college graduates over those who did not earn an undergraduate degree (and we can debate until we are blue in the face about why graduates earn more, but they definitely do earn more), I just do not see why this is much of a pressing public policy issue. College-educated inductees into the professional class (who are likely to marry somebody and stay married from somebody else in that class, too, another hidden advantage) in this country are one of the groups that needs the help the least.

Taxpayers should have higher priorities.

Higher levels of debt are usually correlated with graduate or professional educations, which usually mean even more earning power. The problem ameliorates itself.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

If you can't control the income, at least pay attention to the out-flow.

I'm one of the arrogant 5-10% that don't have to "worry" about money but that's from working my entire life, enlisting in the USAF, and being reasonably practical with my money.

Really, congrads to you. The group I was talking about are pulling down 7 figures and up per year. If that is you, great.
But when the medium income in the state is 57 K a year, that tells me many are not close to that group.
Education or technical training is what gets most people out of poverty. That or hit the lotto or sells illegal drugs on the side.
To not value an education is the one of the worst things we can teach our kids, even if you did not get one yourself.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

I'm not sure - are you saying doctors, lawyers, engineers, CPAs, SHOULDN'T have to go to school?

No, Sigmapolis sure sounds like it.

 

[BMWallace]

Yeah. The kids are always like "you don't understand........". Like we didn't experience fairly similar stuff growing up. Man do I wish I had internet and Google back in the day and had a damn smart phone at my disposal 24/7.

I have to ask, do you actually understand the challenges that young adults face today? Yes, there may be similarities to what you may have faced in your life, but "similar" is not "the same". Time has moved forward and the world has changed. There are different caveats and wrinkles that may not have existed when you were younger.

I'm sure you had your tough times, as we all have to one degree or another. But don't write off the struggles that others face just because the the internet, or smart phones. Maybe try using a little empathy and try to relate, instead of trying to invalidate others with "back in my day" rhetoric.

 

[NWICY]

So where did that extra State money go to? It's apparently not to the teachers, or so I hear. The college students are subsidizing something they didn't used to.

Look at the arms race on campuses fancy dining halls, recreation facilities, single rooms etc... Campuses are way nicer than they were years ago. Not saying that's a bad thing it's the way things have moved towards. Cadillacs and Chevys both go down the road but the options on the Caddy raise the cost of it.

 

[Doc]

Is common sense attributed to a political party?

Blaming bad life decisions on a political party shows there are deeper problems in an individual.

That’s not what I’m meaning to say. I’m talking more about how we view education as a society. I think it’s safe to say that many of the thoughts being posted in this thread are out of line with how the founding fathers viewed education.

It’s great that people are teaching their kids to think about how much debt they’ll take on, and what kind of life a degree with allow them to have (although things change), and that they can still make a shitload of money in a trade. But for us to maintain a free society, education has to be more than pumping out cogs for a larger machine, because that is how you come to be owned.

 

[Sigmapolis]

No, Sigmapolis sure sounds like it.

I do not exactly advocate giving an 18 year old high school graduate a scalpel and wishing them the best of luck with that appendectomy. But you do not learn how to do an appendectomy as an undergraduate or medical student, either -- you learn on the job as a resident or a fellow with years of on-the-job apprenticeship/training to actually practice as a doctor.

Even professional degrees have significant degrees of this. Doctors are not licensed to practice when they earn an MD; they are licensed to practice when they finish a residency, and much of their late undergraduate years are about getting into medical school and much of their late medical school years are about finding a residency. Attorneys have to clerk and work under other attorneys before practicing more independently. Engineers have to go years before they will be seriously in charge of projects and/or handling things that they might break or might hurt somebody if things go wrong. I can go on, but humans learn by such absorption.

Plus, these kinds of degrees are relatively rare. Engineering majors are <10% of degrees awarded nationally, and most people graduating college have relatively generic academic degrees in liberal arts, sciences, or business. I have yet to figure out what the hundreds of thousands of arts majors are prepared to do besides be grad students in their field.

Not calling them dumb -- far from it. I was one of them. But then the real learning starts.

Really, congrads to you. The group I was talking about are pulling down 7 figures and up per year. If that is you, great.
But when the medium income in the state is 57 K a year, that tells me many are not close to that group.
Education or technical training is what gets most people out of poverty. That or hit the lotto or sells illegal drugs on the side.
To not value an education is the one of the worst things we can teach our kids, even if you did not get one yourself.

Average GDP per capita for a few familiar places...

U.S. = $59,532
Iowa = $59,075
Canada = $45,032
United Kingdom = $39,720



Man, how do those Canadians and British people survive on so little money.

The median value you describe above is about as rich as people get on this planet.

Big list of OECD comparisons here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

American states tend to rank highly. Even lowly Mississippi...



...gives you a standard of living near that to Seoul, South Korea.

 

[DeereClone]

and the big thing I think that's often missed with the bolded is this works just like compounding interest. The later they are able to actually start building wealth and not just paying off debt, the worse off they are down the line. The later they buy a house. Newer car. Save for retirement. Save for their own child's education.

Bingo - we are pushing off those other financial achievements further into their lives because they have such a big mess to clean up first and it all has a larger compounding effect.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

I do not exactly advocate giving an 18 year old high school graduate a scalpel and wishing them the best of luck with that appendectomy. But you do not learn how to do an appendectomy as an undergraduate or medical student, either -- you learn on the job as a resident or a fellow with years of on-the-job apprenticeship/training to actually practice as a doctor.

Even professional degrees have significant degrees of this. Doctors are not licensed to practice when they earn an MD; they are licensed to practice when they finish a residency, and much of their late undergraduate years are about getting into medical school and much of their late medical school years are about finding a residency. Attorneys have to clerk and work under other attorneys before practicing more independently. Engineers have to go years before they will be seriously in charge of projects and/or handling things that they might break or might hurt somebody if things go wrong. I can go on, but humans learn by such absorption.

Plus, these kinds of degrees are relatively rare. Engineering majors are <10% of degrees awarded nationally, and most people graduating college have relatively generic academic degrees in liberal arts, sciences, or business. I have yet to figure out what the hundreds of thousands of arts majors are prepared to do besides be grad students in their field.

Not calling them dumb -- far from it. I was one of them. But then the real learning starts.



Average GDP per capita for a few familiar places...

U.S. = $59,532
Iowa = $59,075
Canada = $45,032
United Kingdom = $39,720

View attachment 65183

Man, how do those Canadians and British people survive on so little money.

The median value you describe above is about as rich as people get on this planet.

Big list of OECD comparisons here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

American states tend to rank highly. Even lowly Mississippi...

View attachment 65185

...gives you a standard of living near that to Seoul, South Korea.

They get government paid healthcare, I sure that helps out quite a bit.
As to the 18 year old with a scalpel, I thought you were pushing for them to learn from the doctors, so they would have to be there a few years before we let slice and dice anyone.

To many, I will take the med school graduate route, but to each his own.

 

[NWICY]

Yes. You probably were not daddy and mommy's singular special little snowflake.

Pfffft to that, EVERYONE knows the youngest one always has the most lax rules and get to do more fun stuff sooner.

 

[Sigmapolis]

They get government paid healthcare, I sure that helps out quite a bit.

It would not make a difference in the per capita GDP statistics.

Healthcare is in GDP either way, no matter who pays for those benefits, either a single-payer like Canada, the various systems in Europe, or the combination of systems that we have in the U.S. that yes, is strongly employer-based with private insurance.

So no, the "free" healthcare in these other places does not mean their standards of living are any higher/lower than the numbers indicate based on the per capita GDP. Those places have more social benefits for the middle-class, but their middle-classes also pay more in taxes, especially through a national sales tax/VAT that we do not have.

How does the government get money, after all?

 

[Trice]

These people should be embarrassed if they are still dependent at the age of 27. There is no excuse for it. The population on the whole is more lazy, requires more instant gratification, and is more self entitled than the previous generations. It is always somebody else's fault and never the consequences of our own decisions.

Just caught up on this thread after a few hours offline and this quote is the perfect encapsulation of one side of the argument - AKA old man yells at cloud dot gif. These are the people who would have complained about the invention of motorized school buses a hundred years ago for fear they would turn kids soft. "My life had (some) hardships, and therefore nobody else's life should be easier!"

It's the dumbest and laziest of arguments. And on some level, I get it. Hammering younger generations on a message board for being spoiled and entitled is easy. Critically thinking about the issue is hard.

If you really believe that there are more 27-year-olds who want to live with their parents than in previous generations, ask yourself how your generation's failures in parenting made them turn out that way. If, on the other hand, you believe the likelier scenario - there are more 27-year-olds who live with their parents than in previous generations because they have no other choice but to do so - ask yourself what kind of society you've created for them that put them in that situation.

Either one would be a more honest (and difficult) exercise than shaking your fist at young people who in all reality aren't any different than you were at their age.

 

[bear24]

Just caught up on this thread after a few hours offline and this quote is the perfect encapsulation of one side of the argument - AKA old man yells at cloud dot gif. These are the people who would have complained about the invention of motorized school buses a hundred years ago for fear they would turn kids soft. "My life had (some) hardships, and therefore nobody else's life should be easier!"

It's the dumbest and laziest of arguments. And on some level, I get it. Hammering younger generations on a message board for being spoiled and entitled is easy. Critically thinking about the issue is hard.

If you really believe that there are more 27-year-olds who want to live with their parents than in previous generations, ask yourself how your generation's failures in parenting made them turn out that way. If, on the other hand, you believe the likelier scenario - there are more 27-year-olds who live with their parents than in previous generations because they have no other choice but to do so - ask yourself what kind of society you've created for them that put them in that situation.

Either one would be a more honest (and difficult) exercise than shaking your fist at young people who in all reality aren't any different than you were at their age.

I am 28, so I'm not sure how that fits in to your comment above. My opinion is based on my experiences working with and growing up with people my age. You say it is a dumb argument but I think you would have a hard time arguing that it is not true. I am not denying the college loan industry is predatory and is a problem. I just don't think it is some impassible barrier that people make it out to be. I agree with you parenting is an issue.

On your second point, I absolutely believe there are as many "kids" that would rather live at home and enjoy a comfy lifestyle they couldn't otherwise afford as there are 27 year olds that are forced to do so. There is a labor shortage in this country, construction companies literally can't find enough young people to fill jobs. You may not get to work at your dream job but there are jobs out there that can get you out of the house.

 

[CycloneErik]

Sit in your desk, face forward, and learn like you're taught to learn.

What's so hard about that?

*jimlad*

So you've had a class in Agronomy 2026.

 

[flycy]

You did not answer my question, Could your wife practice medicine today without the degree. Say she worked in a hospital and picked it up on the job. Can a person working in a school, learn from watching teachers and then without training start teaching themselves. I mean they learned from watching others?
No, they cannot. That is my point for many career, without the diploma, you are not given the chance to do the job. Hell hairdressers need a license in the state of Iowa.

So lets now make it harder and more expensive for some to follow their dreams and get an education or vo tech training? Or profit off their desire to get the training?
Its wrong and unamerican to profit off of others in this way, but its capitalism at its finest.

Explain to me how it is wrong or unamerican???? I guess professors, and universities are evil America haters. (Well some are) There is no logic in your arguments. You say people should be able to follow their dreams through educators, but the educators cannot make a good living.

 

[Trice]

I am 28, so I'm not sure how that fits in to your comment above. My opinion is based on my experiences working with and growing up with people my age. You say it is a dumb argument but I think you would have a hard time arguing that it is not true. I am not denying the college loan industry is predatory and is a problem. I just don't think it is some impassible barrier that people make it out to be. I agree with you parenting is an issue.

On your second point, I absolutely believe there are as many "kids" that would rather live at home and enjoy a comfy lifestyle they couldn't otherwise afford as there are 27 year olds that are forced to do so. There is a labor shortage in this country, construction companies literally can't find enough young people to fill jobs. You may not get to work at your dream job but there are jobs out there that can get you out of the house.

If they can't people to work in their jobs, then they aren't paying enough. Simple as that.

 

[ISUTex]

Only the ones who read their posts aloud.


And every generation thinks their burdens are unknown to anyone else but them and nobody understands just how hard it is...

No kidding. Apparently Boomers and Gen X'rs were never young. We apparently just came out of the womb middle aged.

 

[madguy30]

I do not exactly advocate giving an 18 year old high school graduate a scalpel and wishing them the best of luck with that appendectomy. But you do not learn how to do an appendectomy as an undergraduate or medical student, either -- you learn on the job as a resident or a fellow with years of on-the-job apprenticeship/training to actually practice as a doctor.

Even professional degrees have significant degrees of this. Doctors are not licensed to practice when they earn an MD; they are licensed to practice when they finish a residency, and much of their late undergraduate years are about getting into medical school and much of their late medical school years are about finding a residency. Attorneys have to clerk and work under other attorneys before practicing more independently. Engineers have to go years before they will be seriously in charge of projects and/or handling things that they might break or might hurt somebody if things go wrong. I can go on, but humans learn by such absorption.

Plus, these kinds of degrees are relatively rare. Engineering majors are <10% of degrees awarded nationally, and most people graduating college have relatively generic academic degrees in liberal arts, sciences, or business. I have yet to figure out what the hundreds of thousands of arts majors are prepared to do besides be grad students in their field.

Not calling them dumb -- far from it. I was one of them. But then the real learning starts.



Average GDP per capita for a few familiar places...

U.S. = $59,532
Iowa = $59,075
Canada = $45,032
United Kingdom = $39,720

View attachment 65183

Man, how do those Canadians and British people survive on so little money.

The median value you describe above is about as rich as people get on this planet.

Big list of OECD comparisons here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

American states tend to rank highly. Even lowly Mississippi...

View attachment 65185

...gives you a standard of living near that to Seoul, South Korea.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that becoming better at a job comes with actuallying experiencing it, but I also think the coursework that involves actual legalities etc. is important and perhaps that's also part of the official certification process.

 

[ISUTex]

I have to ask, do you actually understand the challenges that young adults face today? Yes, there may be similarities to what you may have faced in your life, but "similar" is not "the same". Time has moved forward and the world has changed. There are different caveats and wrinkles that may not have existed when you were younger.

I'm sure you had your tough times, as we all have to one degree or another. But don't write off the struggles that others face just because the the internet, or smart phones. Maybe try using a little empathy and try to relate, instead of trying to invalidate others with "back in my day" rhetoric.

What are some of these "challenges"? I'm not belittling. I honestly would like to know.