Level the playing field in HS athletics

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Clonefan32

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The multiplier or "relegation" are great ideas. Basing classes solely on enrollment is a terrible indicator of competitiveness. Look at what teams are doing relative to their competition and if they can't keep up, move them where they belong and give a different school a chance.
 

Clonefan32

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I played 4A basketball and we had some teams that were pretty dang good. I remember during Winter Break against a few good 3A teams and absolutely go our ***** kicked. The gap between a good 3A and good 4A team is pretty negligible in everything but football.
 

BCClone

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Not exactly sure.
Looking outside of the Large schools, many times the level of competition a team plays can make a huge difference come play off time. The HS conference my kids are in used to range from 1a to 3a for basketball. Seemed the 3a schools would win the conference but would get blown up in the tourney. There would routinely be a 1a school that would finish in that 2-4 range that would make state and a few times win several games there. They were used to harder competition from the bigger schools in their conference. Conferences are generally set up of, originally, similar sized schools who were generally close to each other. Will the state need to determine conferences or just go to a football district type thing for everything if we want the complete leveling?
 

SEIOWA CLONE

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I think people have been so focused on winning and competitiveness, but at bigger schools participation is the bigger issue. In almost any sport there are good players at metro schools who never see the field because there's college level talent in front of them. Probably at least a dozen baseball players at Johnston that are good enough to play for 99% of the schools in the state but can only manage JV, and then what do they do as seniors? Years ago, Valley opposed splitting the high school because they wanted to be good at football. It's a missed opportunity because twice as many kids would have played, and Valley still can't beat Dowling anyway.

I bring this up because many high school rules that were originally designed to help competitive balance between different sized schools allow larger schools to instead neglect their depth and play a small cadre of kids. A great example is how you can win the baseball state tournament with two elite pitchers getting the lion's share of work, or the baseball reentry rule.

Hell 10 years ago Gilbert was the runner up, lost to Davis Co. in the championship game and the Gilbert pitcher had pitched every inning, except the first inning of the championship game. The way the tournament laid out for 2A that year, it worked out. DC won the game 1 to 0, the only run was given up by the other Gilbert starter.
 
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BillBrasky4Cy

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I grew up in Clive and went to WDM Valley, so this has definitely been eye-opening for me. It wasn’t uncommon for kids to open enroll at Johnston or Waukee so they could make the Varsity team. I remember that we had 120+ kids try out for the baseball team and this was almost 20 years ago so I’m guessing this is true at the other suburban schools. I ask my kids friends what sports they play and find that they aren’t involved in anything. If they do want to take up a sport, it won’t be until JH or HS at which point they will have to learn the game whereas their counterparts at the suburban schools will already have played the sport for 8+ years.

Like I said before, I don’t think this is a sob story for the DM high schools, but I do think it makes the conversation worth having.

Valley had 75 kids try out for the FRESHMAN baseball team this year!
 
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DeereClone

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I played 4A basketball and we had some teams that were pretty dang good. I remember during Winter Break against a few good 3A teams and absolutely go our ***** kicked. The gap between a good 3A and good 4A team is pretty negligible in everything but football.

I would agree with this. I went to a 3A school that regularly played 4A schools in everything besides football and we were very competitive with them. Granted, we weren't playing the DSM metro schools, but Mason City, Cedar Falls, Waterloo Schools, Dubuque Schools, Cedar Rapids, etc. In football we can (and do) compete with the lower end 4A schools but Cedar Falls and the rest of the big boys would kill us.
 

DeereClone

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As a native of Indianola, I can tell you both sides. Since Indianola has dropped to the Litte Hawkeye I've noticed a definite change in attitude towards sports. They are fielding better teams and better athletes. It's fun for kids again. We had no business playing against the Ankeny, Dowling, Valley's of the word with about 1/2 of the enrollment and a 1/4th of the budget. No one went to games, and there as never any excitement around the programs. No one wants to go out and get their ***** kicked every night.

Now for some reason I really can't understand, they still "play up" come state tournament time. So they spend the majority of their year playing 3A competition, only to go up against 4A teams for the tournament. That's logic I can't understand.

Outside of football, you can be in any conference that you want to be in, regardless of enrollment and class. When you get to playoffs the classes are determined by enrollment.

It's pretty common in the rural parts of the state to have 2 classes represented in one conference, and sometimes 3 classes even in extreme cases.

Dubuque Wahlert and CR Xavier would be examples of the opposite scenario of Indianola - they play in the MVC (pretty much all 4A schools) during regular season, but based on enrollment are 3A for playoffs/state.
 

BillBrasky4Cy

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This is correct. Most private schools place a higher importance on academics and opening it up to anyone who plays sports well is foolish. Students aren't official reps of a school and talking to your buddy isn't recruiting. How many people open enrollment to neighboring public districts for one reason or another? Do you consider that recruiting by the receiving district? Marketing? Maybe. But recruiting? Why do the same principles not apply for parents wanting to send their kids to Dowling or Keumper or wherever?

Dowling has other advantages too that haven't been discussed. They are supported by the entire Des Moines Metro catholic network. For example, there is a catholic youth football league that is basically a feeder system straight to Dowling. Trust me, these coaches are evaluating kids at a young age and kids are absolutely being pushed to Dowling and tuition exceptions are being made to get them there.
 

SEIOWA CLONE

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Valley had 75 kids try out for the FRESHMAN baseball team this year!

Valley should have been split into two separate high schools 20 years ago, but the district refuses to do it. They built a building just for their freshman what 10 years ago?

Valley admitted in the Register they were not splitting the district because they were worried how a split would affect their extra curricular activities. Ankeny split, Waukee is building a second high school, IC built a 3rd HS last year. Time to split Valley, but they struggle now beating Dowling.
 
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SEIOWA CLONE

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Outside of football, you can be in any conference that you want to be in, regardless of enrollment and class. When you get to playoffs the classes are determined by enrollment.

It's pretty common in the rural parts of the state to have 2 classes represented in one conference, and sometimes 3 classes even in extreme cases.

Dubuque Wahlert and CR Xavier would be examples of the opposite scenario of Indianola - they play in the MVC (pretty much all 4A schools) during regular season, but based on enrollment are 3A for playoffs/state.

Correct and if you add Davenport Assumption and SC East, all four would be playing in 4A come tournament time with a multiplier like Illinois uses.
 
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theshadow

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Splits in the urban communities will keep bumping borderline schools down a class.

Waukee will have two top-30 enrollments.
Iowa City Liberty is already into the top 40.
If Ankeny had 3 high schools (rumored to be on the way), they'd each be the size of Fort Dodge already.
Valley could split and still have a pair of top-25 numbers.
 

BillBrasky4Cy

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Valley should have been split into two separate high schools 20 years ago, but the district refuses to do it. They built a building just for their freshman what 10 years ago?

Valley admitted in the Register they were not splitting the district because they were worried how a split would affect their extra curricular activities. Ankeny split, Waukee is building a second high school, IC built a 3rd HS last year. Time to split Valley, but they struggle now beating Dowling.

Valley is never going to split and there really isn't any reason to. In 10-20 years the Ankney and Waukee Schools will be on par with Valley as far as enrollment goes. With the Valley school district being land locked I would actually argue that enrollment will start to slide some and it looks like the WDM schools are anticipating the same thing. In a few years the Freshamn will bee back into the high school and Southwoods is going to be re purposed into a trade type school.
 

mustangcy

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I like how Tennessee does it...no private schools allowed against public schools. It's so frustrating year after year to watch the State tournaments in most sports and see almost all classes ruled by private catholic schools. I'd imagine those catholic schools are greasing the wheels at the offices in Boone so it'll never happen. I would bet heavy on nothing ever changing.
 

knowlesjam

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Valley should have been split into two separate high schools 20 years ago, but the district refuses to do it. They built a building just for their freshman what 10 years ago?

Valley admitted in the Register they were not splitting the district because they were worried how a split would affect their extra curricular activities. Ankeny split, Waukee is building a second high school, IC built a 3rd HS last year. Time to split Valley, but they struggle now beating Dowling.
We have a pretty fascinating build or not build process going on here in Nebraska. The Elkhorn school district (just outside of Omaha) is growing fast. They are very competitive in Class B (enrollment under about 950, but above 350) and win many state championships. However, with growth, both schools are now bumping up to Class A. The district (and voters) passed a bond to build a 3rd high school, which after balancing will bring all three schools into the middle of the Class B range. They are making the choice to keep school size below the top school range.
 

riceville98

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Sure, and private catholic schools could ask the vatican to give them money. It won't happen, but it could.

I think this is a conversation worth having, and I agree with the DMPS that it should be based on resources. Because the issue isn't Dowling vs. Waukee, it's Dowling, Waukee, Valley etc. vs. DMPS.

Until they do something to help the small schools and rein in the the private and religious schools., the big schools can cry me a river
 

BCClone

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Not exactly sure.
Until they do something to help the small schools and rein in the the private and religious schools., the big schools can cry me a river


Question, what class size do you see as sustainable for a school? And what kind of help are you suggesting? I went to a school most of my time that we were the big class and had 16.
 

JMA1125

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Valley had 75 kids try out for the FRESHMAN baseball team this year!
This is sad. So many kids who have played baseball (or football, basketball, volleyball, etc.) through middle school won’t ever have the chance to play in high school because there are so many kids trying out. Certainly a different problem than city schools have.
 

Cyfan1965

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Question, what class size do you see as sustainable for a school? And what kind of help are you suggesting? I went to a school most of my time that we were the big class and had 16.


It is a complex issue we are over 50% hispanic in our high school. The numbers of students who can go out for a sport is small. We should be 1A based on numbers who play but we are 3A and have to go to Assumption and play someone who should be 4A.
 
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BillBrasky4Cy

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This is sad. So many kids who have played baseball (or football, basketball, volleyball, etc.) through middle school won’t ever have the chance to play in high school because there are so many kids trying out. Certainly a different problem than city schools have.

Whats sad is the amount of money parents are spending on closed/competitive travel teams only to find out that little johnny might not be as good as we thought....