Give me your most unpopular take about Iowa State

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AuH2O

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Sep 7, 2013
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- Maybe not so unpopular I see now, but Bells of ISU is a pile of nap-inducing crap. It has no place at a sporting event
- Fred is overrated as a player. Good numbers on mediocre at best teams that played a fast pace and garbage defense. Senior year in an 8 team league there were Co-conference POY, neither of which were superstars. Tinsley and Fizer were Conference POY in a 12 team league, Ejim in a 10 team league on much better teams and no jersey in the rafter? Makes no sense.
- People that are late coming back in to the second half of football games because they want to go drink beer in a parking lot are losers
 

crawfy54

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Dec 28, 2006
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Ames, Iowa
Taking every opportunity? This is a hot take thread. That's the entire reason for its existence. Outside of this thread, go look for the last time I posted anything negative about wrestling. If there's anything more recent than a couple years ago, I would be shocked. I post about it at roughly the same rate as I do the other sports you mentioned, because it's much closer in worth to those sports than it is to football or basketball.
Give me a break, man. I don't think you are grasping the concept of what this thread is about.
3,500 per home dual last year. That number is only going to go up. Do they even keep attendance numbers for softball soccer T&F CC S&D? Sure, wrestling is closer to those sports than football and basketball in popularity, I suppose. But they are FAR from the same thing.

Edit: I realize worth =/ popularity
 

mdk2isu

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Jan 30, 2013
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Taking every opportunity? This is a hot take thread. That's the entire reason for its existence. Outside of this thread, go look for the last time I posted anything negative about wrestling. If there's anything more recent than a couple years ago, I would be shocked. I post about it at roughly the same rate as I do the other sports you mentioned, because it's much closer in worth to those sports than it is to football or basketball.
Give me a break, man. I don't think you are grasping the concept of what this thread is about.

Taking ever opportunity may be an exaggeration on my part. But with that said, I don't recall ever seeing you bash any of those other sports. Every time I recall seeing you post anything about wrestling it has been along the vein of taking funding away, cutting the program, or in some other way belittling the program.
 
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Sigmapolis

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@Sigmapolis is the only one that seems to fully comprehend what this thread is supposed to be about and he's accomplishing it without graphs and charts.

Thank you. You are a sweetheart.

In fairness, I am pretty used to having people disagree with me on here and inducing much cognitive dissonance through charts, graphs, and interpretations of the same.

You did ask for them, however, so I am going to port these over from another thread regarding the question about how good was the Kane-Ejim-Niang squad when healthy.

The answer is, well, not any better than any of our other tournament flame outs.

* * *​

I have actually been meaning to do a statistical comparison of how good each of the tournament teams "looked" at the end of the season. That is, how much momentum did each of them carry into the NCAA tournament, looking at the numbers?

To do this, I am going to use Barttorvik "game scores." Game scores are a grade, between 0 and 100, where a 0 means you played like the worst team in the country on a given night and a 100 means you were playing like one of the best. More specifically, a 0% means you would beat 0% of teams giving their average performance with the performance you had that night, and 100% means you beat 100% of other teams' average performances.

I decided to graph those game scores. Here is what it looks like.

upload_2019-5-15_14-16-39-png.64283


Four of these teams won the Big 12 tournament...

2014
2015
2017
2019

...so for those four, the last three entries (to the right) are the three games in Kansas City. I do not think you can claim that the teams that did not win the Big 12 tournament had more momentum or were playing better than those that actually did.

Simplifying the chart down to just those four...

upload_2019-5-15_14-18-49-png.64284


If anything above, I think the 2017 season is the largest missed opportunity. They were killing teams late that season, and the four-guard lineup of Morris, Mitrou-Long, Thomas, and Burton really came into its own once Solomon started. They probably had the best bench, too, with Jackson as a gunner, Nick as a Swiss army knife, and some okay Bowie play.

They clearly had the best game scores going into the NCAA tournament, and this holds true going back through the last month of the season, as well. It was just really unfortunate that they had a bad start against Purdue and were unable to finish coming back from it. They were poised for a deep run with that level of guard play, but it did not happen.

The Big 12 has always been good, but I think that season might have been its apex. Just looking over the all-conference teams for that year is mind-boggling...

Jawun Evans, So., G, Oklahoma State
Josh Jackson, Fr., F, Kansas
Frank Mason III†, Sr., G, Kansas
Monte Morris†, Sr., G, Iowa State
Johnathan Motley†, Jr., F, Baylor

Vladimir Brodziansky, Jr., F, TCU
Jeffrey Carroll, Jr., G/F, Oklahoma State
Jevon Carter Jr., G, West Virginia
Devonte' Graham Jr., G, Kansas
Naz Mitrou-Long, Jr., G, Iowa State

Even the 2019 team was playing better than the Kane-Ejim-Niang team in the last week of the season. They were really good in Kansas City, and they unfortunately ran into a bad match-up in Tulsa against Ohio State. Shayok-NWB-Wigginton-THT-Haliburton has a legitimate case as one of the best guard corps in school history. The only problem with them was that the game "Five Out" was in Morgantown, and we all know what a debacle that was. Barttorvik gave us a pretty generous 26 for that one, so you have to ignore that monstrosity.

I do not see anything above to suggest the Georges' foot team was either better on the whole or playing any better at the end of the season compared to any of our other teams in the NCAA tournament. I just think it has the benefit of the doubt -- we know what could have happened if we romanticize the possibilities. Sure, they could have beaten UConn and Michigan State to make the Final Four, and we never have to discard the possibility because they never had a fair shot because of injury. The other teams have no such excuses and came up short, so we kind of find them wanting. We never have to recognize such reality with 2014.

That was a great team, no doubt, but I have never really seen a case they were somehow better than our other teams of the era. They just have a better excuse. The Big 12 was good in 2014, but it was only better in subsequent years, which means later teams with similar records were just as good if not actually somewhat better when taken in some context.

Addendum for @NWICY --

Average game score of the four teams that won the Big 12 tournament in KC...

2014 = 93.0%
2015 = 91.0%
2017 = 98.3%
2019 = 97.0%

The Kane-Ejim-Niang team that was playing "so good" at the end of the season was actually outplayed by the teams during Monté's senior year and last season during their respectively runs to the Big 12 tournament title, as we can see in the average scores.

I know Georges breaking his foot hurts, but we should honestly be more frustrated by the Purdue and Ohio State games. The statistical case above says those teams were playing better heading into the tournament and just had a bad night/ran into a bad match-up, yet they actually had more long-term potential to make a run based on their ratings from the season as a whole and their momentum from KC. I almost wish more that we would have gotten past Purdue than UConn considering the talent on that roster with all of those excellent guards.

A difference of 1% above corresponds to about 3.5 spots of ranking, so 98.3 minus 93.0 is roughly like going from the #6 team in the country (2017) down past the #11 team in the country (2019) down to the #25 team (2014). The computers just like the quality of play and the quality of the Big 12 in 2017 and 2019 more, which leads to the ratings we see above.
 

BillBrasky4Cy

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Not sure if unpopular or not, but re-entry shouldn’t be allowed after halftime just so people can go and drink 1 beer.

Oh trust me that is definitely an unpopular take for the donors... the re-entry policy needs to go! The number of empty seats between the 30's at the start of the second half is pathetic and complete slap in the face to a winning football team.
 

crawfy54

Well-Known Member
Dec 28, 2006
1,966
427
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Ames, Iowa
Oh trust me that is definitely an unpopular take for the donors... the re-entry policy needs to go! The number of empty seats between the 30's at the start of the second half is pathetic and complete slap in the face to a winning football team.
Sell beer in stadium and I’ll stop going out at halftime. Until then...
 
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ILikeTurtles

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Busch Light is just fine for a cheap beer. But the fan base's hard on for bragging how much they drink of it or how much it represents them is super cringey (i.e. all the social media stuff at the Alamo Bowl)
 

Dopey

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2009
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Thank you. You are a sweetheart.

In fairness, I am pretty used to having people disagree with me on here and inducing much cognitive dissonance through charts, graphs, and interpretations of the same.

You did ask for them, however, so I am going to port these over from another thread regarding the question about how good was the Kane-Ejim-Niang squad when healthy.

The answer is, well, not any better than any of our other tournament flame outs.

* * *​

I have actually been meaning to do a statistical comparison of how good each of the tournament teams "looked" at the end of the season. That is, how much momentum did each of them carry into the NCAA tournament, looking at the numbers?

To do this, I am going to use Barttorvik "game scores." Game scores are a grade, between 0 and 100, where a 0 means you played like the worst team in the country on a given night and a 100 means you were playing like one of the best. More specifically, a 0% means you would beat 0% of teams giving their average performance with the performance you had that night, and 100% means you beat 100% of other teams' average performances.

I decided to graph those game scores. Here is what it looks like.

upload_2019-5-15_14-16-39-png.64283


Four of these teams won the Big 12 tournament...

2014
2015
2017
2019

...so for those four, the last three entries (to the right) are the three games in Kansas City. I do not think you can claim that the teams that did not win the Big 12 tournament had more momentum or were playing better than those that actually did.

Simplifying the chart down to just those four...

upload_2019-5-15_14-18-49-png.64284


If anything above, I think the 2017 season is the largest missed opportunity. They were killing teams late that season, and the four-guard lineup of Morris, Mitrou-Long, Thomas, and Burton really came into its own once Solomon started. They probably had the best bench, too, with Jackson as a gunner, Nick as a Swiss army knife, and some okay Bowie play.

They clearly had the best game scores going into the NCAA tournament, and this holds true going back through the last month of the season, as well. It was just really unfortunate that they had a bad start against Purdue and were unable to finish coming back from it. They were poised for a deep run with that level of guard play, but it did not happen.

The Big 12 has always been good, but I think that season might have been its apex. Just looking over the all-conference teams for that year is mind-boggling...

Jawun Evans, So., G, Oklahoma State
Josh Jackson, Fr., F, Kansas
Frank Mason III†, Sr., G, Kansas
Monte Morris†, Sr., G, Iowa State
Johnathan Motley†, Jr., F, Baylor

Vladimir Brodziansky, Jr., F, TCU
Jeffrey Carroll, Jr., G/F, Oklahoma State
Jevon Carter Jr., G, West Virginia
Devonte' Graham Jr., G, Kansas
Naz Mitrou-Long, Jr., G, Iowa State

Even the 2019 team was playing better than the Kane-Ejim-Niang team in the last week of the season. They were really good in Kansas City, and they unfortunately ran into a bad match-up in Tulsa against Ohio State. Shayok-NWB-Wigginton-THT-Haliburton has a legitimate case as one of the best guard corps in school history. The only problem with them was that the game "Five Out" was in Morgantown, and we all know what a debacle that was. Barttorvik gave us a pretty generous 26 for that one, so you have to ignore that monstrosity.

I do not see anything above to suggest the Georges' foot team was either better on the whole or playing any better at the end of the season compared to any of our other teams in the NCAA tournament. I just think it has the benefit of the doubt -- we know what could have happened if we romanticize the possibilities. Sure, they could have beaten UConn and Michigan State to make the Final Four, and we never have to discard the possibility because they never had a fair shot because of injury. The other teams have no such excuses and came up short, so we kind of find them wanting. We never have to recognize such reality with 2014.

That was a great team, no doubt, but I have never really seen a case they were somehow better than our other teams of the era. They just have a better excuse. The Big 12 was good in 2014, but it was only better in subsequent years, which means later teams with similar records were just as good if not actually somewhat better when taken in some context.

Addendum for @NWICY --

Average game score of the four teams that won the Big 12 tournament in KC...

2014 = 93.0%
2015 = 91.0%
2017 = 98.3%
2019 = 97.0%

The Kane-Ejim-Niang team that was playing "so good" at the end of the season was actually outplayed by the teams during Monté's senior year and last season during their respectively runs to the Big 12 tournament title, as we can see in the average scores.

I know Georges breaking his foot hurts, but we should honestly be more frustrated by the Purdue and Ohio State games. The statistical case above says those teams were playing better heading into the tournament and just had a bad night/ran into a bad match-up, yet they actually had more long-term potential to make a run based on their ratings from the season as a whole and their momentum from KC. I almost wish more that we would have gotten past Purdue than UConn considering the talent on that roster with all of those excellent guards.

A difference of 1% above corresponds to about 3.5 spots of ranking, so 98.3 minus 93.0 is roughly like going from the #6 team in the country (2017) down past the #11 team in the country (2019) down to the #25 team (2014). The computers just like the quality of play and the quality of the Big 12 in 2017 and 2019 more, which leads to the ratings we see above.

:eek:
 
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BillBrasky4Cy

Well-Known Member
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Dec 10, 2013
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Busch Light is just fine for a cheap beer. But the fan base's hard on for bragging how much they drink of it or how much it represents them is super cringey (i.e. all the social media stuff at the Alamo Bowl)

Sorry you hate fun...
 

AuH2O

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Sep 7, 2013
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Don't get me wrong, I have made my fair share of trips out to the lots at halftime but we have a product worth watching now. I'm just curious but how does that not trump the halftime beer?

Guess I never have and never will understand opting to do something you can do damn near every day of the year (stand around and drink beer) ahead of doing something you can do a few times a year.

To each their own, but having a bunch of empty seats at kickoff in the second half with a good team makes our fans look like an absolute joke. I understand that some of that is restroom/concession problems in JTS, but there are still plenty of empty seats due to the parking lot drinkers, and that drives me crazy.
 

Cyched

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May 8, 2009
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Don't get me wrong, I have made my fair share of trips out to the lots at halftime but we have a product worth watching now. I'm just curious but how does that not trump the halftime beer?

That’s where I’m at. I’ve made my share of halftime trips, but really? You’re that desperate for a beer? Especially pathetic when the game is close/important.