Wind Energy in Iowa...Your Thoughts

[candg4ever]

I have a limited knowledge on the subject, but it seems to me that if it isn't financially viable, both short term and long term, it wouldn't be such a popular option. It seems to make even more sense when you think of the alternatives... Our planet does not have unlimited resources, and it would be prudent to create and perfect alternate ways to provide the answers, instead of waiting until nature issues a cease and desist order that people tend to ignore or consider a massive hoax.

I'm sure that R&D could provide improvements, maybe even radical changes. As for the impact their manufacture has, I would think it would be better in the long run than mining and drilling, and then, in some cases, endless transport by rail lines or other means...

 

[Farnsworth]

I don't even understand how this happens:

Years ago I saw this happen, I think it was the one on the DMACC Ankeny campus and instantly thought of this vid. On my way back home they had it stopped which was good, although this would have been sweet to see.

 

[Cyclonepride]

I think you are misreading ambition as deception. We need visionaries like AOC to set goals and point our economy in a sustainable direction. The plan will evolve and change as we move forward. No reason to think small about the environment, especially when lives depend on it.

We need visionaries, but we do not need people living in the world of pure fantasy.

 

[cygrads]

Thanks to all that have provided really interesting information and personal and professional experiences. To those of you that make everything about politics go have your fun in the cave.

 

[motorcy90]

Years ago I saw this happen, I think it was the one on the DMACC Ankeny campus and instantly thought of this vid. On my way back home they had it stopped which was good, although this would have been sweet to see.

the one at DMACC has spring loaded centrifugal force tips that prevent an over speed situation. if they reach close to that speed the blade tips will swing 90 degrees to the rest of the blade, disrupting the aerodynamics of the blade and causing a stall. happened about 2 years ago now when Ankeny got hit with 60+mph winds. basically they have to get the boom truck from the maintenance department and manually reset each blade.

 

[cyinne]

I have been going through negotiations with a wind company for the past year or so. When I asked where the power was going that these windmills made- the company reps said that the energy was being put on transmission lines and sent to Illinois. Pretty much from then on I was a hard no on anything that the company wanted to put on my and my family’s land.

That company has been back to the area many times to essentially money whip anybody that has not signed up.

 

[ArgentCy]

They just installed some new power lines from our large coal plant down to Missouri. I'm not sure if that is for selling excess power from that plant to Missouri or sending excess wind power south. Either way I'm sure its a result of the increased wind power in Iowa.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I have been going through negotiations with a wind company for the past year or so. When I asked where the power was going that these windmills made- the company reps said that the energy was being put on transmission lines and sent to Illinois. Pretty much from then on I was a hard no on anything that the company wanted to put on my and my family’s land.

That company has been back to the area many times to essentially money whip anybody that has not signed up.

Saying the power from any specific plant (even an individual wind tower) goes to a particular place or state, unless you are talking about some "behind the meter" micro-grid, is pretty much impossible to say. The transmission system is like a bathtub. You "pour" power into it like water, and there is no way to know where the electrons came from.

It all becomes kind of waves of probability at that point.

Given the structure of the transmission system, power in Iowa is going into a pool that includes...

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Illinois (though not the Chicago area)
Missouri (the eastern part, mostly around St. Louis)
Indiana
Michigan
Arkansas
Louisiana
Mississippi

...though technically there are interchanges everywhere. The power could functionally end up between Maine and Tijuana, if you follow everything.

 

[BCClone]

Saying the power from any specific plant (even an individual wind tower) goes to a particular place or state, unless you are talking about some "behind the meter" micro-grid, is pretty much impossible to say. The transmission system is like a bathtub. You "pour" power into it like water, and there is no way to know where the electrons came from.

It all becomes kind of waves of probability at that point.

Given the structure of the transmission system, power in Iowa is going into a pool that includes...

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Illinois (though not the Chicago area)
Missouri (the eastern part, mostly around St. Louis)
Indiana
Michigan
Arkansas
Louisiana
Mississippi

...though technically there are interchanges everywhere. The power could functionally end up between Maine and Tijuana, if you follow everything.

Correct. If there is a town between your turbine and the end of the powerline, it is probably feeding them. Florida Power and Light built a load of turbines in NC iowa since they had to have so much green energy. They sell it to companies up here and get credit for it down there.

 

[CascadeClone]

AOC's proposal is a little bit of both.

My reading of it, it isn't in any way a plan or policy. It's just a vision, a campaign slogan. And frankly could have been written by a 6th grader detailing how they want the world to be, but with no ideas of how to do it.

From The Economist, chunks of their review of it:

"GOOD POLICY should seem more convincing as it becomes more detailed. The Green New Deal championed by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the newly minted Democratic superstar in Congress, has the opposite effect.

In a single sub-paragraph, the American people are promised “high-quality health care; affordable, safe and adequate housing; economic security; and clean water, clean air, healthy and affordable food, and access to nature.” There is no further elaboration. Along with the previous guarantee of “a job with a family-sustaining wage, adequate family and medical leave, paid vacations, and retirement security,” this vision of American society is beautifully utopian. It quite literally promises the world. Yet each component of this paradise would require massive upheavals. Voters deserve a bit more explanation on how to get from here to there."

Full article:
https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2019/02/11/the-problem-with-the-green-new-deal

 

[weR138]

I'm sure that R&D could provide improvements, maybe even radical changes. As for the impact their manufacture has, I would think it would be better in the long run than mining and drilling, and then, in some cases, endless transport by rail lines or other means...

Me too. But my biggest concern with wind (besides the financial and practical feasibility) is the embedded energy. How much fossil fuels are going into this endeavor. Are we "robbing Peter to pay Paul", so to speak.

 

[CtownCyclone]

(1.) Air conditioning. As you speculated, we cool our homes with electricity and generally heat them with natural gas or fuel oil, so you need more power in the summer. If we were to transition more and more to electric heat pumps for winter heating, then load would smooth out throughout the year (though not be reduced because, obviously, you still need the AC in the summer). The exact size and scope of that would depend pretty heavily on the region of the country, though. It would not have much of a smoothing effect in Georgia or Florida, which are always going to be about that AC, but it would help in New England or Minnesota.

To add a bit to this...I've got heat pumps for my upstairs and downstairs units. Heat pumps require backup heat, even here in the South. One is backed up by electric heat, the other is backed up by gas.

Heat pump heat feels different in that when it kicks on, hot air isn't instantly coming out of the vents - it takes a bit to develop the heat (just like when the A/C kicks on, it's not cold air coming out right away). And when it gets cold enough outside, most residential units will rely solely on backup below about 30-40 degrees.

So I get 2 peaks of electrical use - in the winter when it's cold enough to be on backup heat, and in the summer when it's hot as balls down here.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Me too. But my biggest concern with wind (besides the financial and practical feasibility) is the embedded energy. How much fossil fuels are going into this endeavor. Are we "robbing Peter to pay Paul", so to speak.

That is a fair point. The scientists and engineers studying these things are pretty careful to look at the net impacts, not just the gross impacts, of these changes, though.

Yes, building and installing a wind or solar turbine requires a lot of energy, but so does the maintenance and eventual replacement of a gas or coal plant. They wear out after some period of decades, too, and their replacement is carbon-hungry. This assumes you can one-to-one replace a thermal unit with a renewable unit, which is not the case, but there is some correspondence there (depending on the system planner and how, well, brave they are).

I would note that wind and solar plants, once they are up, do not emit anything, obviously, but they do not emit anything through their supply chain, either. A coal or gas plant requires a supply chain of pipelines, compressors, trains, trucks, and mining to move the fuel from Texas or Wyoming or wherever to the plant itself, and there are significant emissions there.

The same goes for electrification. An electric car requires emissions to create, but so does a traditional internal-combustion one, and they will net out somehow. Additionally, if you are charging an electric vehicle from a coal or a gas plant, then you are saving less net emissions (even if you are saving any at all accounting for the generation). However, if you are plugged into a system dominated by nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, or other renewable sources, then you are coming out further ahead. EVs charged by coal might still be "dirty."

You are right that you need to account for that factor, but there are a ton of moving parts here.

 

[cyinne]

Saying the power from any specific plant (even an individual wind tower) goes to a particular place or state, unless you are talking about some "behind the meter" micro-grid, is pretty much impossible to say. The transmission system is like a bathtub. You "pour" power into it like water, and there is no way to know where the electrons came from.

It all becomes kind of waves of probability at that point.

Given the structure of the transmission system, power in Iowa is going into a pool that includes...

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Illinois (though not the Chicago area)
Missouri (the eastern part, mostly around St. Louis)
Indiana
Michigan
Arkansas
Louisiana
Mississippi

...though technically there are interchanges everywhere. The power could functionally end up between Maine and Tijuana, if you follow everything.

That makes sense and makes me wonder why the guy made that specific claim. If others ask the same question about where the power goes and the reps tell them some other state and turns them off like it did me they are doing a huge disservice to their company.
I’m not gonna lie- there are other reasons we turned down putting these things on our land but that is a story for another day.

 

[RonBurgundy]

That makes sense and makes me wonder why the guy made that specific claim. If others ask the same question about where the power goes and the reps tell them some other state and turns them off like it did me they are doing a huge disservice to their company.
I’m not gonna lie- there are other reasons we turned down putting these things on our land but that is a story for another day.

There are two issues. From an engineering perspective, the energy generated will likely be "used" in the nearby area.

But from a financial perspective, that energy can be "sold" to an entity in another state. So he may have been telling the truth. There can be a contract for differences between the point the energy is interjected on the grid and the price of energy at the user end.

When an Amazon or Google or city claim that they get 100% of their energy from renewable sources, that is BS on one hand, but true from another perspective. Financially they can enter into contracts to pay for renewable energy, but the actual electrons flow along the path of least resistance and that data center may actually be powered almost entirely by a nearby coal plant.

 

[Sigmapolis]

There are two issues. From an engineering perspective, the energy generated will likely be "used" in the nearby area.

But from a financial perspective, that energy can be "sold" to an entity in another state. So he may have been telling the truth. There can be a contract for differences between the point the energy is interjected on the grid and the price of energy at the user end.

When an Amazon or Google or city claim that they get 100% of their energy from renewable sources, that is BS on one hand, but true from another perspective. Financially they are paying for renewable energy, but the actual electrons flow along the path of least resistance and that data center may actually be powered almost entirely by a nearby coal plant.

There is a third perspective for this, as well --

Assume load in Iowa is flat.
Assume there is load growth in Illinois.

Therefore, adding new generation, from a planning perspective, goes towards satisfying the new load in Illinois... so I guess you could say that, on the margin, the new plant would go towards satisfying the new load in Illinois. New load in IL = new generation in IA. I already explained how Iowa and the non-Chicago parts of Illinois are all in the same pool.

Electricity is just weird. I do not think one can make a solid, indisputable claim that power in county/state X goes to county/state Y unless you have some really specific circumstances of transmission or somebody is generating behind the meter.

 

[farm85]

That makes sense and makes me wonder why the guy made that specific claim. If others ask the same question about where the power goes and the reps tell them some other state and turns them off like it did me they are doing a huge disservice to their company.


I’m not gonna lie- there are other reasons we turned down putting these things on our land but that is a story for another day.

Honestly I haven't read all these posts, but wonder how many people that responded actually live near a wind farm? I agree that is a story for another day. This controversial subject has divided communities & neighbors.

 

[crawfy54]

I’m biased, but if I were a landowner I would absolutely accept having wind turbines on my property. Easy money, baby. Also, I would feel really jaded if my neighbors were offered and accepted having turbines built on their land and I had to drive by them every day and imagine all that easy money THEY were making. I was on a project in Kansas and the owners offered neighboring property owners annual cash even if the turbines weren’t on their property.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I’m biased, but if I were a landowner I would absolutely accept having wind turbines on my property. Easy money, baby. Also, I would feel really jaded if my neighbors were offered and accepted having turbines built on their land and I had to drive by them every day and imagine all that easy money THEY were making. I was on a project in Kansas and the owners offered neighboring property owners annual cash even if the turbines weren’t on their property.

Not bad money for just owning some rural land...