Bulls are already a cluster ****...

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jbindm

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I'm already excited to see where this thread has gone by the end of next March. Some predictions of the flash points between now and then -

late October - local Chicago columnist destroys Hoiberg in a takedown column
mid November - Hoiberg gets criticized by player(s) - my guess? Zach LaVine
early Dec - the Cavs beat the Bulls in Chicago and Dwyane Wade, class act that he is, takes a postgame swipe at Hoiberg
Jan - GarPax issues the annual vote of confidence
Feb - The "Are the Bulls the Worst Team of All Time?" takes start rolling out. 9-73; is it possible?
Mar - College jobs start opening up, Fred is mentioned in connection with every single one of them.

Fun stuff. Enjoy the season, Bulls fans.
 

srjclone

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For many reasons, yes. Go back and read Bill Simmons and Zack Lowe articles from Grantland around that time. I'm not qualified to say if he's good or not, but I'll take the opinion of those involved with the game.
I'm just saying, Stevens has been regarded as a great coach throughout his career even though they were in complete rebuild from the moment he got there and molded it with his ideas in mind. Fred got to Chicago, and the front office rather than tanking or throwing money to get solid paces that fit their system, they threw crazy amounts of money at guys who are the exact opposite of what Hoiberg has had success with. And even with that he still is over .500. Now, not saying he has killed the NBA coaching game, but I really don't think it is fair to blame Fred for those last 2 teams. Now, if he can't show any strides from the beginning of this year to the end people have a right to start getting antsy, but this is essentially the situation in which Stevens came into in Boston, just 2 years later. I think he deserves at least 1 more year with this core group of young guys to prove he can do something with them. After next year if they aren't in the playoffs you have to ax him.

All that being said, something has to change with GarPax, and I think it will now that they have an unbiased 3rd party opinion in there that will hopefully lead to one or both of them being pushed out
 
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jbindm

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I'm just saying, Stevens has been regarded as a great coach throughout his career even though they were in complete rebuild from the moment he got there and molded it with his ideas in mind. Fred got to Chicago, and the front office rather than tanking or throwing money to get solid paces that fit their system, they threw crazy amounts of money at guys who are the exact opposite of what Hoiberg has had success with. And even with that he still is over .500. Now, not saying he has killed the NBA coaching game, but I really don't think it is fair to blame Fred for those last 2 teams. Now, if he can't show any strides from the beginning of this year to the end people have a right to start getting antsy, but this is essentially the situation in which Stevens came into in Boston, just 2 years later. I think he deserves at least 1 more year with this core group of young guys to prove he can do something with them. After next year if they aren't in the playoffs you have to ax him.

AFTER this season he'll still be owed another two years and ten million dollars. He's not going anywhere with that much money left on his contract.
 

rholtgraves

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Of note for the Bulls though. They did score 100 points without Mirotic, Lavine or Portis. Two starters and a rotation player. The Knicks scores 84 and the Lakers 92.
 

CyJack13

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AFTER this season he'll still be owed another two years and ten million dollars. He's not going anywhere with that much money left on his contract.

This is the genius of Gar. You have a cheap owner, so how do you protect your job, hire an unproven coach for a lot of guaranteed money. Your owner won't want to pay that money, plus money for a new coach. No GM wants to come into a situation where they can't make their own coaching hire, thus five years of job security successfully nailed down for him the moment he hired Hoiberg.
 

BryceC

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I'm just saying, Stevens has been regarded as a great coach throughout his career even though they were in complete rebuild from the moment he got there and molded it with his ideas in mind. Fred got to Chicago, and the front office rather than tanking or throwing money to get solid paces that fit their system, they threw crazy amounts of money at guys who are the exact opposite of what Hoiberg has had success with. And even with that he still is over .500. Now, not saying he has killed the NBA coaching game, but I really don't think it is fair to blame Fred for those last 2 teams. Now, if he can't show any strides from the beginning of this year to the end people have a right to start getting antsy, but this is essentially the situation in which Stevens came into in Boston, just 2 years later. I think he deserves at least 1 more year with this core group of young guys to prove he can do something with them. After next year if they aren't in the playoffs you have to ax him.

I'm not sure what he could even do to show strides with this team. But as others have said, one of the reasons this team sucks so much is because he butted heads with the good players he had in the past.
 

CyJack13

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I'm just saying, Stevens has been regarded as a great coach throughout his career even though they were in complete rebuild from the moment he got there and molded it with his ideas in mind. Fred got to Chicago, and the front office rather than tanking or throwing money to get solid paces that fit their system, they threw crazy amounts of money at guys who are the exact opposite of what Hoiberg has had success with. And even with that he still is over .500. Now, not saying he has killed the NBA coaching game, but I really don't think it is fair to blame Fred for those last 2 teams. Now, if he can't show any strides from the beginning of this year to the end people have a right to start getting antsy, but this is essentially the situation in which Stevens came into in Boston, just 2 years later. I think he deserves at least 1 more year with this core group of young guys to prove he can do something with them. After next year if they aren't in the playoffs you have to ax him.

This was always part of the problem, the guys he needed to succeed, interchangeable athletes who can guard multiple positions, shoot and handle the ball, are the exact kind of players every team wants. Fred took NBA ideas to the college game when he went to Ames, trying to bring the exact same ideas back to the league five years later wasn't going to give him any advantage.
 

srjclone

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I'm not sure what he could even do to show strides with this team. But as others have said, one of the reasons this team sucks so much is because he butted heads with the good players he had in the past.
IDk if Fred has ever butted heads with anyone. I think it is safe to say Jimmy didn't like his demeanor, which is fair because Thibs is the one who got the most out of him and they are completely different coaches, and Jimmy wanted Fred to push him more. Again, Fred needs the guys he's good with, and as much as I love both Jimmy as a basketball player and Fred, I didn't ever see those personalities becoming very buddy-buddy if they stayed together.

But it'll be a pile of flaming **** for a while, it's how Fred can mold guys into his style, and if he can't be successful at that with this group then he certainly deserves to be on the hot seat.
 

srjclone

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This was always part of the problem, the guys he needed to succeed, interchangeable athletes who can guard multiple positions, shoot and handle the ball, are the exact kind of players every team wants. Fred took NBA ideas to the college game when he went to Ames, trying to bring the exact same ideas back to the league five years later wasn't going to give him any advantage.
It's not going to give him a leg up, no, but when you give him 3 of the most notoriously ball-heavy guards that cant shoot a lick, how does anyone expect him to put out a successful group in his system?

I think they realized that, which is good for Bulls fans.
 

rholtgraves

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You also have to remember that front offices and ownership have a lot to do with whether a coach will succeed. Good organizations are the key in pro sports. Patriots, Spurs etc. The front office has to be working with the head coaches not against them which often seems what the Bulls front office is doing, i.e. telling Thibs how to use players, not listening to coaches on what players they want to draft, sign etc.
 

rholtgraves

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IDk if Fred has ever butted heads with anyone. I think it is safe to say Jimmy didn't like his demeanor, which is fair because Thibs is the one who got the most out of him and they are completely different coaches, and Jimmy wanted Fred to push him more. Again, Fred needs the guys he's good with, and as much as I love both Jimmy as a basketball player and Fred, I didn't ever see those personalities becoming very buddy-buddy if they stayed together.

But it'll be a pile of flaming **** for a while, it's how Fred can mold guys into his style, and if he can't be successful at that with this group then he certainly deserves to be on the hot seat.

Butler had problems with Fred right off the bat because he was mad about Thibs being fired. He also didn't want to run Fred's offense. He also didn't get along with other guys on the team.

And like you said, the front office went out and got two guys that were old and didn't fit at all and said, here, make that work.
 

srjclone

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Butler had problems with Fred right off the bat because he was mad about Thibs being fired. He also didn't want to run Fred's offense. He also didn't get along with other guys on the team.

And like you said, the front office went out and got two guys that were old and didn't fit at all and said, here, make that work.
Yeah, you either gotta to go full-rebuild and embrace the suck for a while or throw money at the right pieces to be successful. They said they were gonna rebuild, then back tracked and threw a ton of money at the wrong pieces, hence why Garpax suck haha. Even as a TWolves fan it is really hard to watch the moves they make.
 

jsb

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You also have to remember that front offices and ownership have a lot to do with whether a coach will succeed. Good organizations are the key in pro sports. Patriots, Spurs etc. The front office has to be working with the head coaches not against them which often seems what the Bulls front office is doing, i.e. telling Thibs how to use players, not listening to coaches on what players they want to draft, sign etc.

The thing is Fred knew the front office well. It’s not like gar making idiotic decisions is new.
 
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AllInForISU

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I honestly dont understand how the front office of the Bulls thought this was going to go. They fired Thibs, they didnt let his contract run out, they fired him. He was the most successful coach in Bulls history besides Phil Jackson, who also had arguably the best player in NBA history on his team. That did not sit well with any of the fans in Chicago and definitely none of the players, who were molded perfectly for a Thibs style team. Couple that with the fact that this is the second former ISU coach that the Bulls have hired which also didnt sit well with the fan base, and Fred didnt have a chance to win them over coming in.

I love the Bulls but the fan base in the Chicago area reminds me a lot of the Nebraska fan base. The Bulls were really good for a decade 30 years ago (1988-1998) but they havent really done a lot since, but the fans have an unrealistic expectation of the organization that lucked into getting arguably the best player in league history. The people in charge of this organization have been a joke ever since they decided to not resign Phil Jackson after the 98 season.
 

rholtgraves

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The thing is Fred knew the front office well. It’s not like gar making idiotic decisions is new.

Point? It isn't like Fred could just pick whatever job he wanted to in the NBA. It isn't a video game. He felt the timing was right for him to make a jump. The Bulls were his best and maybe only opportunity at that time. He got himself into the league and got a $25 mill contract. The one good thing he did do over the offseason was he seemed to get the front office to listen to him about roster choices and the makeup of the team.
 

laminak

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Point? It isn't like Fred could just pick whatever job he wanted to in the NBA. It isn't a video game. He felt the timing was right for him to make a jump. The Bulls were his best and maybe only opportunity at that time. He got himself into the league and got a $25 mill contract. The one good thing he did do over the offseason was he seemed to get the front office to listen to him about roster choices and the makeup of the team.

I hate to agree with jsb on a Hoiberg thread, however she's right. It was well-known about the issues with that front office and that aging oft-injured roster. If you're a hot commodity in the NCAA and rumored for every NBA coaching gig, he could have waited to pick his spot, one with an easier and more obvious chance for success.
 
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AllInForISU

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I hate to agree with jsb on a Hoiberg thread, however she's right. It was well-known about the issues with that front office and that aging oft-injured roster. If you're a hot commodity in the NCAA and rumored for every NBA coaching gig, he could have waited to pick his spot, one with an easier and more obvious chance for success.

I agree. He should have gone to the GSW when he had the chance. His system would have worked perfectly there (obviously)
 

srjclone

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The thing is Fred knew the front office well. It’s not like gar making idiotic decisions is new.
tbh, that was the reason why I thought he'd stay at ISU when all the rumors were swirling. But they must've told him something to make him believe they'd be there to help him