What's the difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher?

[alaskaguy]

An economist at Stanford has drawn the following conclusions:

The students of a very bad teacher will learn, on average, half a year’s worth of material in one school year. The students in the class of a very good teacher will learn a year and a half’s worth of material.

Teacher effects dwarf school effects: your child is actually better off in a “badâ€￾ school with an excellent teacher than in an excellent school with a bad teacher. Teacher effects are also much stronger than class-size effects. You’d have to cut the average class almost in half to get the same boost that you’d get if you switched from an average teacher to a teacher in the eighty-fifth percentile. And remember that a good teacher costs as much as an average one, whereas halving class size would require that you build twice as many classrooms and hire twice as many teachers.

Link:
Annals of Education: Most Likely to Succeed: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker

 

[alarson]

so basically, itd be better to fire the bad ones and have larger class sizes.

 

[ISUKyro]

so basically, itd be better to fire the bad ones and have larger class sizes.

Please don't say that too loud. I have one class that has 38 in in right now :sad:

 

[alaskaguy]

ISUKyro since you are in Houston, the media is making it sound like the teachers in that school district have a bigger drug problem than the students.

Link:
Plan for searches at employee parking lots follows latest teacher arrests | Front page | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

 

[wolverine68]

Please don't get me started on teacher pay. You want good teachers? Pay them what they are worth. You are right, a good teacher can handle a larger class and get them to learn. The problem is, who would want to be a teacher given their salary? Make the salary competitive with other fields. The cream will rise to the top.

 

[jaretac]

One that gives you an A vs one that gives you D.

 

[jumbopackage]

Please don't get me started on teacher pay. You want good teachers? Pay them what they are worth. You are right, a good teacher can handle a larger class and get them to learn. The problem is, who would want to be a teacher given their salary? Make the salary competitive with other fields. The cream will rise to the top.

Yeah but you are going to be paying a whole bunch of bad teachers a whole lot of money.

I'm all for 6 figure salaries for high performers. That will NEVER happen as long as the NEA is in charge, though. Even rating teachers is a touchy subject, let alone tying benefits to performance as opposed to, say, tenure.

 

[spanny]

Learning has nothing to do with grades.

 

[spanny]

The NEA won't allow that because too many teachers skate not doing anything!


Oops, did I say that out loud, I am a teacher, not the skating kind, I work my tail off to make sure these kids are capable thinkers and problem solvers.

 

[Cyclonepride]

An economist at Stanford has drawn the following conclusions:

The students of a very bad teacher will learn, on average, half a year’s worth of material in one school year. The students in the class of a very good teacher will learn a year and a half’s worth of material.

Teacher effects dwarf school effects: your child is actually better off in a “badâ€￾ school with an excellent teacher than in an excellent school with a bad teacher. Teacher effects are also much stronger than class-size effects. You’d have to cut the average class almost in half to get the same boost that you’d get if you switched from an average teacher to a teacher in the eighty-fifth percentile. And remember that a good teacher costs as much as an average one, whereas halving class size would require that you build twice as many classrooms and hire twice as many teachers.

Link:
Annals of Education: Most Likely to Succeed: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker

WRONG! It's all about how much money you throw at education. Ask Chet. He knows.:nah:

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

A good teacher can make a lifetime's worth of difference in a students life. My oldest daughter is a testament to that. She used to be a little aprehensive about school until she went into 2nd grade and got a motivated teacher who turned her into a kid who couldn't wait to get to school. She had her two years ago and she still makes time to see how her former students, and their family for that matter, are doing.

 

[Stumpy]

Please don't get me started on teacher pay. You want good teachers? Pay them what they are worth. You are right, a good teacher can handle a larger class and get them to learn. The problem is, who would want to be a teacher given their salary? Make the salary competitive with other fields. The cream will rise to the top.

One could argue that the low salary actually strengthens the pool of talent. Only people with a true passion for the profession and care for students would stand for such monetary compensation, while they take satisfaction in intangible means. It keeps those in the field genuine.

That said, I don't fully buy that logic and completely agree that those in education need to be rewarded with higher wages. But for the sake of being devil's advocate...

 

[Bader]

None of this matters since for some stupid reason primary and secondary school teachers are able to obtain tenure.

After that, its easy riding, tell the kids to shut their yap and just escape the 50 minutes until the next round come in.

 

[Cyclonepride]

One could argue that the low salary actually strengthens the pool of talent. Only people with a true passion for the profession and care for students would stand for such monetary compensation, while they take satisfaction in intangible means. It keeps those in the field genuine.

That said, I don't fully buy that logic and completely agree that those in education need to be rewarded with higher wages. But for the sake of being devil's advocate...

How about those who excel in education need to be rewarded with higher wages?

 

[Bader]

How about those who excel in education need to be rewarded with higher wages?

How do you determine which schools/teachers excel?

Grades? Maybe

Standardized test scores? Problem we have now

Surveys?

I dunno

 

[LindenCy]

The NEA won't allow that because too many teachers skate not doing anything!


Oops, did I say that out loud, I am a teacher, not the skating kind, I work my tail off to make sure these kids are capable thinkers and problem solvers.

Just like with GM, the huge union is part of the problem. I would love to pay teachers better, but they also have to unshackle their ability to deal with their class. In many public schools the students know they can get away with anything and provoke teachers.

 

[jaretac]

Yeah but you are going to be paying a whole bunch of bad teachers a whole lot of money.

I'm all for 6 figure salaries for high performers. That will NEVER happen as long as the NEA is in charge, though. Even rating teachers is a touchy subject, let alone tying benefits to performance as opposed to, say, tenure.

The other problem is who is going to pay them? Why do you think that people with money put their kids in private schools. Private schools pay better and are able to get better teachers as a result. Public schools will never have the money to compete.

Second, even if public schools had the money, they still would have bad teachers. Fact is, same people are just naturally good teachers and some are naturally bad, and their are not enough good teachers out there to fill every teacher vacancy. Look at football, football coaches get paid plenty and there are still allot of bad coaches out there.

 

[balken]

Good teacher - Mr. Schoop

Bad teacher - Dr. Philip Barbay

 

[CloneFan65]

A good teacher can make a lifetime's worth of difference in a students life. My oldest daughter is a testament to that. She used to be a little aprehensive about school until she went into 2nd grade and got a motivated teacher who turned her into a kid who couldn't wait to get to school. She had her two years ago and she still makes time to see how her former students, and their family for that matter, are doing.

Unfortunately so can a bad teacher. I teach college math and I don't know how many students I've had tell me they liked math and were good at it until they had a terrible teacher in ____ grade and they've disliked math ever since. I'm all for merit pay for teachers. I understand it's tough to judge, but everyone at the school knows who the good teachers are (and aren't.)

 

[jumbopackage]

The other problem is who is going to pay them? Why do you think that people with money put their kids in private schools. Private schools pay better and are able to get better teachers as a result. Public schools will never have the money to compete.

Second, even if public schools had the money, they still would have bad teachers. Fact is, same people are just naturally good teachers and some are naturally bad, and their are not enough good teachers out there to fill every teacher vacancy. Look at football, football coaches get paid plenty and there are still allot of bad coaches out there.

It would be a fairly trivial amount of money, all things considered.

The shift in culture required to implement it is the issue.

You could address keeping naturally good teachers at schools by rewarding them, but making them move if necessary.

Say, a "top 15" job pool, and a "top 15" employee pool. There would be yearly ratings and reviews, and re-evaluations of where teachers are needed. For instance, a good school might lose it's good teachers to a troubled one across town for a year or two. Putting the best teachers at the worst schools where they are most needed might improve education across the board. Of course a teacher could always decline to be in the top 15 employee pool, and the money that goes along with it.