Martina Navratilova and Trans Athletes

[capitalcityguy]

Good points. Would you agree with me, however, that up to about the age of 12 or so, there is very little difference, if any at all, between the sexes when it comes to sports? Fast girls are just as fast as fast boys, strong girls as strong as strong boys, etc. It's only when puberty kicks in that the differences emerge? In my experience this is true.

(In my 20s, I was employed as a coach for a large Iowa school district, and I have experience as a coach with junior high basketball (boys and girls), junior high and high school volleyball (girls), junior high track (boys and girls) and high school football.)

I'm not sure I'm a good judge of that because my experiences are affected by the fact that when I went to elementary school there was a big difference....but that might have been due to other influences (as you suggested).

Today when I watch my 12 yr old daughter compete in soccer (and at a younger age it was co-rec...as was basketball), there didn't seem to be a huge disparity between boys and girls (although boys tended to me more aggressive) athletically.

 

[harimad]

I'm not sure I'm a good judge of that because my experiences are affected by the fact that when I went to elementary school there was a big difference....but that might have been due to other influences (as you suggested).

Today when I watch my 12 yr old daughter compete in soccer (and at a younger age it was co-rec...as was basketball), there didn't seem to be a huge disparity between boys and girls (although boys tended to me more aggressive) athletically.

I'm glad you said that. Because it's the main difference that I've always seen as well. I've always chalked that up to socialization. In my experience, the strongest female athletes match in determination what boys have in aggression.

Something that rings true for me, when discussing gender differences in athletics. Boys will work on a skill until they're "good enough" with it. Girls will perfect it before moving on to the next one.

Girls will go over a wall. Boys will knock it down.

 

[CloneFan4]

Respectfully, this attitude condemns most transgender individuals to either a shortened lifespan (via the suicide route) or a lifetime of harassment from closed-minded individuals who have an easy time shooting the visibly transgender fish in the socially acceptable harassment barrel.

The amount of anger and hatred it takes to condemn an individual in your life for a personal choice (whether you agree with that decision or not) is well beyond me. If you are facing this constant harassment from someone why not cut them from your life? Someone that truly loves you, family, friend, etc. would not impose in this way and if you recognize this hatred cut the toxicity out of your life. It can be a terribly hard decision, but this isn't unique to trans individuals. Everyone at some point will face this decision and should hope to have the courage to make the right choice.

 

[Knownothing]

Good points. Would you agree with me, however, that up to about the age of 12 or so, there is very little difference, if any at all, between the sexes when it comes to sports? Fast girls are just as fast as fast boys, strong girls as strong as strong boys, etc. It's only when puberty kicks in that the differences emerge? In my experience this is true.

(In my 20s, I was employed as a coach for a large Iowa school district, and I have experience as a coach with junior high basketball (boys and girls), junior high and high school volleyball (girls), junior high track (boys and girls) and high school football.)

I disagree with this. I coach youth soccer, boys and girls and 11 year old good boys will kick the crap out of 11 year old good girls. We have them play all of the time.

 

[OPButtrey]

The rate of suicide is 20x greater for those that have transitioned.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence

This is the last I’ll post in this thread. I helped get this thread way off topic and I apologize for that.

This is interesting. I was originally skeptical since the link was to the heritage foundation (and i tend to lean right) but the article links to a couple sources that appear to be sound.

 

[harimad]

This is interesting. I was originally skeptical since the link was to the heritage foundation (and i tend to lean right) but the article links to a couple sources that appear to be sound.

I know what you're citing. The writer of the study that the Heritage Foundation cites has repeatedly stated that Heritage has misrepresented her findings.

Edit: just realized that I didn't see you were responding to @crawfy54 (who I ignored at some point in the past.)

https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-...ition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

 

[mywayorcyway]

My wife works at a store where an early 20s man is transitioning into a woman. He (now she) is an accomplished track and distance runner. She competed in her first event as a woman a couple of weeks ago. Absolutely demolished everyone. She was winning male events one year ago as a man. It's causing quite a stir.

 

[CloneFan4]

I know what you're citing. The writer of the study that the Heritage Foundation cites has repeatedly stated that Heritage has misrepresented her findings.

Edit: just realized that I didn't see you were responding to @crawfy54 (who I ignored at some point in the past.)

https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-...ition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...se-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

 

[MeowingCows]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...se-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

What does this have to do with what @harimad was talking about?

Also, this article seems to imply that the women's team wasn't putting for their best effort (and why would they, it's a bunch of kids and they aren't going to risk injuries).

 

[harimad]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...se-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

Not sure what this has to do with anything I've written so far.

 

[dmclone]

Checking back to see if CF solved this issue.

 

[CloneFan4]

Not sure what this has to do with anything I've written so far.

It was supposed to be in response to Knownothing's. I misquoted

 

[Tri4Cy]

Why don't we just say eff it and take this to the "logical conclusion" and eliminate gendered competition all together? Let girls/women compete directly with the boys/men. Think of the time and money we waste holding these events separate. Just call it human basketball, or human track, etc, and let the best humans win. Obviously, we want to bar the Michael Phelps vs "A Shark" swim meet type stuff so we need the "human" modifier.

Jimlad

I understand the sarcasm but I use this is my rebuttal to those arguing the initial point. This solution also fixes wage gaps! Don't worry about what NBA vs WNBA stars get paid. There is only one team. If you're good enough to play then you'll get paid what you deserve! Same with any of the sports. Then it doesn't matter what sex you are biologically, or how you associate. You just play against everyone.

It's a great argument to get someone to admit that there is in fact a biological difference between men and women. Otherwise this solution would make obvious sense.

 

[HFCS]

This thread is going too well.

( I probably just jinxed it!)

Someone linking Heritage Foundation as hard fact on this particular topic probably more responsible than anything you wrote.

Pretty much like exclusively considering the Coyote's opinion on Roadrunner health and safety.

 

[brett108]

That is obvious...well obvious to most because look at that Connecticut track and field situation.

The question is could a girl transitioning to a boy ever take enough male hormone to have an advantage on an average boy of the same age. I'm sure it probably matters when they start taking them, my guess would be that it's not really possible but who knows. Maybe there are some extreme cases if the woman/girl is already an elite athlete, I doubt it would ever be common or the norm.

They have an advantage. Think East German swim team. Females are actually far more responsive to increases in testosterone and anabolic streroids, and testosterone is the primary hormone given to transitioning women. One of the ways they catch dirty coaches is if the coaches are only successfully training female champions.

 

[HFCS]

They have an advantage. Think East German swim team. Females are actually far more responsive to increases in testosterone and anabolic streroids, and testosterone is the primary hormone given to transitioning women. One of the ways they catch dirty coaches is if the coaches are only successfully training female champions.

They have an advantage over men? That was what we were talking about. Clearly that's not universal, it could be in case by case situations. I would guess most commonly a transitioning woman taking male hormones would still be at a physical disadvantage to most but not all men.

Obviously that Olympics a few years back where the Chinese swim team had women that were gigantic compared to all of the other women there was cheating involved but those PED taking women weren't destroying Michael Phelps times.

 

[brett108]

They have an advantage over men? That was what we were talking about. Clearly that's not universal, it could be in case by case situations. I would guess most commonly a transitioning woman taking male hormones would still be at a physical disadvantage to most but not all men.

Obviously that Olympics a few years back where the Chinese swim team had women that were gigantic compared to all of the other women there was cheating involved but those PED taking women weren't destroying Michael Phelps times.

No, other women. In fact in a lot of cases steroid use provides better performance in men but not the drastic differences you see in women . There appears to be a limit to how much testosterone exposure can help. What Texas was allowing with the transitioning girl against other girls in wrestling was the equivalent of allowing a roided athlete to compete against clean athletes. A woman transitioning to a man to compete against men would still be at a huge disadvantage. In most cases hormone therapy can only restore about 50-75% of an average hormone level, and without the effects of the testosterone in development bone structure and mass tend to be smaller and this cannot be changed in adulthood.

 

[dirtyninety]

Boring. Like really boring.

 

[HFCS]

No, other women. In fact in a lot of cases steroid use provides better performance in men but not the drastic differences you see in women . There appears to be a limit to how much testosterone exposure can help. What Texas was allowing with the transitioning girl against other girls in wrestling was the equivalent of allowing a roided athlete to compete against clean athletes. A woman transitioning to a man to compete against men would still be at a huge disadvantage. In most cases hormone therapy can only restore about 50-75% of an average hormone level, and without the effects of the testosterone in development bone structure and mass tend to be smaller and this cannot be changed in adulthood.

Nobody in the thread was disagreeing that male hormones can give women an advantage over other women.

I made several posts disagreeing with what Texas is doing, I think three times I posted that it is wrong and several times pointed it out to others.

 

[JaCyn]

It's huge. I was able to bench reps of 225 pretty easily prior to transition. I struggle to do 135 now, four years later.

I don't know much about the transgender community, so please realize I have two questions that are not intended to offend or hurt you. If they are too personal there is no need to respond.
1. Is 135lbs bench strong for girls?
2. Have you gone to the gym and competed with other girls, and did you feel you had an edge if you did?
Sorry that was three questions.