ISU Individual Player OFF vs. DEF ratings

[madguy30]

One other thought. I'd get Conditt on the floor more (likely anyway with Solo done) . Best defender, rim protector. And with all the other guys who can create he can be around to rebound or take out the trash. He seems to be more natural with that than Lard.

Anyone know Conditt's +/- from Saturday? I could swear ISU got up while he was in. And I'll have to go back and watch but I'm pretty sure his blocks were more controlled and may help more to actually turn the possession vs. swatting it out of bounds. Lard and him may make a good switch up for styles.

He got taken in by Wade but that's a 1st Team All B12 player and at least it was something where Wade had to wait for things to develop instead of just a quick bucket.

For now throw him out there and let him learn from mistakes so long as it's not a total gouging (might be anyway).

 

[Cyclonepride]

Not worth a new thread, and I don’t want to extend the whining threads, so this is as good of place as any.

As the year wears on, I’m starting to think that Jacobson really needs to be a stretch 4 in conference play (only situationally a 5). That might help our rebounding as well (all this assuming a healthy Cam to start at the 5 with George backing him up. Jacobson to the 5 only when we match up better that way, or in case of foul trouble.

 

[madguy30]

Not worth a new thread, and I don’t want to extend the whining threads, so this is as good of place as any.

As the year wears on, I’m starting to think that Jacobson really needs to be a stretch 4 in conference play (only situationally a 5). That might help our rebounding as well (all this assuming a healthy Cam to start at the 5 with George backing him up. Jacobson to the 5 only when we match up better that way, or in case of foul trouble.

I can see MJ having a role of being the scrappy annoying (for the other team) guy off the bench that changes things up with the ability to hit from different spots.

 

[FinalFourCy]

I can see MJ having a role of being the scrappy annoying (for the other team) guy off the bench that changes things up with the ability to hit from different spots.

Great, but who do we have that can competently replace him?

 

[ArgentCy]

This confirms what eyes have seen. Halliburton has been incredible and derserved the minutes he got earlier. He shouldn't lose any minutes to LW or Lard or anyone else coming back.

The bottom line is we can't have Shayok, LW, and THT out there together.

 

[ArgentCy]

Not worth a new thread, and I don’t want to extend the whining threads, so this is as good of place as any.

As the year wears on, I’m starting to think that Jacobson really needs to be a stretch 4 in conference play (only situationally a 5). That might help our rebounding as well (all this assuming a healthy Cam to start at the 5 with George backing him up. Jacobson to the 5 only when we match up better that way, or in case of foul trouble.

That would be especially important at least to try against the rough and tumble teams like KSU or WVU.

 

[madguy30]

This confirms what eyes have seen. Halliburton has been incredible and derserved the minutes he got earlier. He shouldn't lose any minutes to LW or Lard or anyone else coming back.

The bottom line is we can't have Shayok, LW, and THT out there together.

TH needs to go back to his floater in the lane instead of kicking it out with a jump pass.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Weiler-Babb
Haliburton
Wigginton
Shayok
Lard
---
Horton-Tucker
Jacobson
Conditt

...maybe a splash of Talley or Lewis...

= the team hitting its highest potential.

If Lindell and Cameron get back to where they left off at their peak last season.

 

[CascadeClone]

Great, but who do we have that can competently replace him?

Replace him doing what? I'm glad MJ is a Cyclone, and he is competent at everything, but not great at anything. Offensively, he hasn't had a lot of success inside in conference play, and he hasn't hit a lot of jumpers. Defensively, he was great vs Kansas but otherwise not so much. I don't perceive him to be a great rebounder either. We need him to play and get minutes, but I struggle with what his role is in conference play against big and quick posts.

The idea of putting him at the 4 is interesting, but when you have 5 pretty good guards does that make sense? IDK. Just struggling to figure out the best role for him on this team.

 

[LLCoolCY]

Not worth a new thread, and I don’t want to extend the whining threads, so this is as good of place as any.

As the year wears on, I’m starting to think that Jacobson really needs to be a stretch 4 in conference play (only situationally a 5). That might help our rebounding as well (all this assuming a healthy Cam to start at the 5 with George backing him up. Jacobson to the 5 only when we match up better that way, or in case of foul trouble.

I have been of the opinion all year that for this team to be at it's best Cam will need to start (Lindell too). Jacobson has been solid but doesn't provide the presence that Lard brings but still should play C rather than stretch PF due to ISU's guard depth and MJ hasn't been hitting 3 to help provide spacing in conference season. Prohm has maintained all year he wants to play 4 Guards/Wings & 1 Post.
Conditt has flashed in limited minutes and has a bright future but hard to rely on him as the primary backup center and 20 minutes after one game. With the loss of Solomon there are plenty of minutes to split between the 3 at center due to Lards injury and recent foul trouble (George has had issues picking up fouls too.)
If we get a split of Lard/Jacobson 15 min each and Conditt 10 as center it should be successful in providing the post presence ISU need. (they can each play a few minutes at PF when match ups are right)

 

[EarthIsMan]

Replace him doing what? I'm glad MJ is a Cyclone, and he is competent at everything, but not great at anything. Offensively, he hasn't had a lot of success inside in conference play, and he hasn't hit a lot of jumpers. Defensively, he was great vs Kansas but otherwise not so much. I don't perceive him to be a great rebounder either. We need him to play and get minutes, but I struggle with what his role is in conference play against big and quick posts.

The idea of putting him at the 4 is interesting, but when you have 5 pretty good guards does that make sense? IDK. Just struggling to figure out the best role for him on this team.

I challenge some of your perceptions. First, Jacobson has been in a bit of rough patch regarding 3pt shooting, but I think he still needs to attempt 2 or 3 per game. They will fall. While Jacobson does not rebound outside his area, he is best positional rebounder on the team especially now that Solomon is out. Statistically, Jacobson has the best OFF and DEF rebound rates of ISU post players (Lard has played more difficult opponents so it could be Jacobson's rebounding could be inflated by level of competition). Lastly, Jacobson has played the best post defense although Lard has more defensive upside. He is not as athletic as Lard, but he is usually in better position against those bigger/faster post players that you described.

Your point about role is an important one. I believe, the greatest area in which ISU is currently struggling is that players seemed to have not accepted or understand their role yet- which is expected with lineups changing so much game-to-game due injuries or early season suspension.

I believe best Jacobson's role is when he is the primary post, but very sparingly plays the 4 with Lard/Conditt when defensively we need another post defender. If he had better vision as a passer it would be much easier to play him with another posts. Jacobson should be shooting at least 2-3 3pt attempts per game. His traditional post ups should be a somewhat limited and I would like to see him pass to the perimeter more often during post ups. Lastly, it goes without saying but what we need most from Jacobson is rebounding. That should be primary focus #1.

 

[FinalFourCy]

Replace him doing what? I'm glad MJ is a Cyclone, and he is competent at everything, but not great at anything. Offensively, he hasn't had a lot of success inside in conference play, and he hasn't hit a lot of jumpers. Defensively, he was great vs Kansas but otherwise not so much. I don't perceive him to be a great rebounder either. We need him to play and get minutes, but I struggle with what his role is in conference play against big and quick posts.

The idea of putting him at the 4 is interesting, but when you have 5 pretty good guards does that make sense? IDK. Just struggling to figure out the best role for him on this team.

Again, who would he lose his minutes to? Lard is also a liability at times and THT has really been struggling. Do we have the guards that necessitates small-ball? If we do, the coaches aren’t getting them to play that way.

 

[Sigmapolis]

@EarthIsMan

Most teams nowadays, and this is true in the NBA as well, develop a system and drill it into the ground to make it as best they can. "Toggling" styles -- e.g., a man team going zone in a particular game for match-up reasons, the way a football secondary might do -- is kind of out of favor right now in basketball. It is somewhat out of favor in football, too, unless your coach is Bill Belichick. It takes rare talent and coaching to do multiple systems well.

Most coaches and teams concentrate on one thing and doing it well.

Prohm made the decision long ago to be a team that is built around the following roles...

1 PG
3 Wings
1 Big Man

Why? I think there were fundamentally two reasons...

(1.) While this style might predate his time in Ames, from what I have seen, I think Prohm really liked how the MM-NML-MT-DB-SL team was playing in the late part of his second season, both in style and quality. That team was really good at the end of the season. I think Prohm has been coaching and recruiting to try to recreate that system.

(2.) At the same time, the guys he has recruited to it are similar to the archetypes that came from that season. I do not know if he just recruited and found he had the guys for it or found he had the guys for it and went with it, but I think it is clear that he has been trying to do something like the following in rebuilding that 2015-2016 team...

Morris/Weiler-Babb = the "do everything" facilitator PG who plays an ungodly number of minutes
Naz-Matt-Deonte-Jackson/Wigginton-THT-Shayok-TH = 3&D wings
Young/the big men this year = play defense and rebound

We did not play two big men that season because we did not have two big men.

I think, from what I can tell, we do not play two big men right now because, frankly, we do not have the sets built in to do it. I am not sure our offense is tailored to it. I do not think we play Jacobson as a stretch big because, well, Prohm never really installed that in the system from Day 1, thinking too himself long ago he would rather keep Wigginton or Shayok on the court longer instead of putting another big man out there. We are that style now.

 

[EarthIsMan]

@EarthIsMan

Most teams nowadays, and this is true in the NBA as well, develop a system and drill it into the ground to make it as best they can. "Toggling" styles -- e.g., a man team going zone in a particular game for match-up reasons, the way a football secondary might do -- is kind of out of favor right now in basketball. It is somewhat out of favor in football, too, unless your coach is Bill Belichick. It takes rare talent and coaching to do multiple systems well.

Most coaches and teams concentrate on one thing and doing it well.

Prohm made the decision long ago to be a team that is built around the following roles...

1 PG
3 Wings
1 Big Man

Why? I think there were fundamentally two reasons...

(1.) While this style might predate his time in Ames, from what I have seen, I think Prohm really liked how the MM-NML-MT-DB-SL team was playing in the late part of his second season, both in style and quality. That team was really good at the end of the season. I think Prohm has been coaching and recruiting to try to recreate that system.

(2.) At the same time, the guys he has recruited to it are similar to the archetypes that came from that season. I do not know if he just recruited and found he had the guys for it or found he had the guys for it and went with it, but I think it is clear that he has been trying to do something like the following in rebuilding that 2015-2016 team...

Morris/Weiler-Babb = the "do everything" facilitator PG who plays an ungodly number of minutes
Naz-Matt-Deonte-Jackson/Wigginton-THT-Shayok-TH = 3&D wings
Young/the big men this year = play defense and rebound

We did not play two big men that season because we did not have two big men.

I think, from what I can tell, we do not play two big men right now because, frankly, we do not have the sets built in to do it. I am not sure our offense is tailored to it. I do not think we play Jacobson as a stretch big because, well, Prohm never really installed that in the system from Day 1, thinking too himself long ago he would rather keep Wigginton or Shayok on the court longer instead of putting another big man out there. We are that style now.

I do not want to see 2 posts playing together as it does not give ISU the best chance to win.

We do need our guards and wings to rebound better, however.

 

[WhatchaGonnaDo]

So our best lineup is

Haliburton
Talley
MJ
Solo
Lard

With Solo out it'll have to be

NWB
Haliburton
Talley
MJ
Lard

#facts

 

[EarthIsMan]

So our best lineup is

Haliburton
Talley
MJ
Solo
Lard

With Solo out it'll have to be

NWB
Haliburton
Talley
MJ
Lard

#facts

This is not our best lineup. If you are basing this off some of the individual metrics I shared in the post, you are putting too much faith in them.

If this ^lineup is based on your own intuition then I cannot help you.

 

[WhatchaGonnaDo]

This is not our best lineup. If you are basing this off some of the individual metrics I shared in the post, you are putting too much faith in them.

If this ^lineup is based on your own intuition then I cannot help you.

Sarcasm filter required

 

[EarthIsMan]

Sarcasm filter required

Gotcha, assumed that was likely. If only a filter existed in written word...

 

[Cyclonepride]

I do not want to see 2 posts playing together as it does not give ISU the best chance to win.

We do need our guards and wings to rebound better, however.

That really depends on how we match up with who we are playing.

I think Jacobson/Lard or Jacobson/Conditt adds defensive bulk and rebounding, with still a bit of perimeter out of your 4. The key there (to me) would be to have one of either Babb or Haliburton, and two of Wigginton/THT/Shayok paired with them. That would give us a distributor and two options to go get buckets (and three options to break down the defense).

 

[EarthIsMan]

That really depends on how we match up with who we are playing.

I think Jacobson/Lard or Jacobson/Conditt adds defensive bulk and rebounding, with still a bit of perimeter out of your 4. The key there (to me) would be to have one of either Babb or Haliburton, and two of Wigginton/THT/Shayok paired with them. That would give us a distributor and two options to go get buckets (and three options to break down the defense).

I do not think we will ever see 2 post play together while ISU leading in a game.

We probably will see it when we are behind and cannot end a defensive possession with a rebound or are having difficult guarding a 2 post lineup.

Either way playing 2 posts to me indicates that we are conceding a battle already lost.