Plane on a Treadmill

[CyPlainsDrifter]

I do understand 100%, what I am saying is that the Myth we all are debating about says the treadmill will ALWAYS move as fast as the plane, the plane therefore cannot move forward enough to get the air pressure and lift necessary for flight.

And yet you fail to realize time and again that the speed of the treadmill means literally NOTHING! After ten pages of you claiming that the moving treadmill will somehow magically prevent/halt the motion of the plane, you have never once described how that would happen.

The plane's engine pushes against surrounding air to propel the plane forward.

Treadmill rolls in opposite direction, pushing against wheels that are free-wheeling and have no ability to counteract the planes thrust. The plane couldn't care less, whether its own wheels are spinning at 100mph or 5mph or 1000mph. Plane contnues to move from thrust. Treadmill continues to do NOTHING to stop it.

Once and for all, please tell us HOW the treadmill prevents the motion of the plane. You've stated a hundred times that it will, without ever once describing the process.

 

[wolverine68]

I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but where is the CyBookie for this?

Base it off of Mythbusters, bets could be place on Confimed, Plausable, or Busted!

 

[chadm]

Well the myth that is stated is that the plane(meaning the body of the plane) is always moving at the same speed as the treadmill(belt). NOT the wheels.

So if the body is moving forward at 200mph then it can take off.

If the plane and treadmill equall each other out, that would mean no movement.

 

[htownclone]

If the plane and treadmill equall each other out, that would mean no movement.

correct.

 

[twittkop]

I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but where is the CyBookie for this?

Base it off of Mythbusters, bets could be place on Confimed, Plausable, or Busted!

The bookies aren't willing to create this event. Confirmed, Plausible or Busted depend on how Adam and Jamie state the myth. They will probably either assume it will or will not takeoff, but we don't know which.

 

[wolverine68]

And yet you fail to realize time and again that the speed of the treadmill means literally NOTHING! After ten pages of you claiming that the moving treadmill will somehow magically prevent/halt the motion of the plane, you have never once described how that would happen.

The plane's engine pushes against surrounding air to propel the plane forward.

Treadmill rolls in opposite direction, pushing against wheels that are free-wheeling and have no ability to counteract the planes thrust. The plane couldn't care less, whether its own wheels are spinning at 100mph or 5mph or 1000mph. Plane contnues to move from thrust. Treadmill continues to do NOTHING to stop it.

Once and for all, please tell us HOW the treadmill prevents the motion of the plane. You've stated a hundred times that it will, without ever once describing the process.

The wheels don't counteract the thrust, the treadmill does. The wheels are just what connects the two. The wheels being free-wheeling help the treadmill as much as the plane. As long as the plane needs wind speed to gain lift, there will be weight on the wheels. As long as there is weight on the wheels, there will be friction with the ground. As long as there is friction with the ground, the treadmill will be able to keep the plane from moving forward. As long as the plane is unable to move forward, it will be unable to gain lift. As long as there is no lift, gravity will hold the plane on the ground.

Where am I wrong with this argument?

 

[tim_redd]

The gravity is the same in both cases, so it is irrelevant.

 

[chadm]

The wheels don't counteract the thrust, the treadmill does. The wheels are just what connects the two. The wheels being free-wheeling help the treadmill as much as the plane. As long as the plane needs wind speed to gain lift, there will be weight on the wheels. As long as there is weight on the wheels, there will be friction with the ground. As long as there is friction with the ground, the treadmill will be able to keep the plane from moving forward. As long as the plane is unable to move forward, it will be unable to gain lift. As long as there is no lift, gravity will hold the plane on the ground.

Where am I wrong with this argument?

The friction doesn't come close to matching the thrust of the engines.

 

[jdoggivjc]

what htown isn't realizing is that the treadmill could move at 500 mph in the backwards direction, if 50 mph worth of thrust is applied to the plane, the plane will move at 50 mph, regardless of the fact that the treadmill is moving at 500 mph in the opposite direction.

 

[cmoneyr]

So if the body is moving forward at 200mph then it can take off.

If the plane and treadmill equall each other out, that would mean no movement.

The only way the treadmill could cancel out the speed of the plane is if the wheels of the plane were forced to move at a speed equal to the speed of the plane. Example: Plane moving at 50mph, wheels have to move at 50mph. This is not how a plane works though, a planes wheels will spin however fast they have to to keep up with the thrust being produced. On a sold runway this is equal to the speed of the plane, on a treadmill going the same speed, the wheels would have to spin twice as fast.

So yes, the plane and the treadmill would be moving at equal speed in opposite directions. But because the wheels of a plane will go twice as fast to compensate, the speed of the actual plane isn't affected.

 

[wolverine68]

The bookies aren't willing to create this event. Confirmed, Plausible or Busted depend on how Adam and Jamie state the myth. They will probably either assume it will or will not takeoff, but we don't know which.

Then why not just make an event guessing what Jamie and Adam will say, then we can debate whether they were correct endlessley!

 

[twittkop]

Then why not just make an event guessing what Jamie and Adam will say, then we can debate whether they were correct endlessley!

The endless debating is going to happen even if there isn't a cybookie event.

 

[wolverine68]

what htown isn't realizing is that the treadmill could move at 500 mph in the backwards direction, if 50 mph worth of thrust is applied to the plane, the plane will move at 50 mph, regardless of the fact that the treadmill is moving at 500 mph in the opposite direction.

Again, I think you are failing to take into account the force of gravity and the frcition that would cause.

Can we all agree that a plane, chained to a wall, could not take aff regardless of the thrust? I think if we start there then it would be easier to figure this out.

 

[cmoneyr]

correct.

Incorrect.

How can I explain this clearly...

Ok, the treadmill is going 50mph correct?

The plane itself, meaning the body of the plane, is moving 50mph in the opposite direction correct?

Now, in order to keep up with the moving treadmill, the wheels of a plane rotate as if the plane were moving 100mph. The 50mph of the treadmill only cancels out 50mph of the rotation of the wheels, leaving us with a plane that moves forward at 50mph just as if it were not on a treadmill. How can that not make sense? You've conceded that you agree that a planes wheels can spin faster than the plane itself is moving, so what do you think these extra rotations accomplish?

 

[chadm]

Again, I think you are failing to take into account the force of gravity and the frcition that would cause.

Can we all agree that a plane, chained to a wall, could not take aff regardless of the thrust? I think if we start there then it would be easier to figure this out.

I am starting to think the writers stike is affecting your reasoning.:wink: Gravity and friction is a small percentage of this equation.

 

[jdoggivjc]

The wheels don't counteract the thrust, the treadmill does. The wheels are just what connects the two. The wheels being free-wheeling help the treadmill as much as the plane. As long as the plane needs wind speed to gain lift, there will be weight on the wheels. As long as there is weight on the wheels, there will be friction with the ground. As long as there is friction with the ground, the treadmill will be able to keep the plane from moving forward. As long as the plane is unable to move forward, it will be unable to gain lift. As long as there is no lift, gravity will hold the plane on the ground.

Where am I wrong with this argument?

Your wrong in this argument simply because of the example I provided earlier with the die cast car and the sheet of paper. If you put a die cast car on top of a sheet of paper and pull the sheet of paper out from underneath the car, the car will not significantly move (it may move an inch or so, but it will not move the 3-5 feet that your arm moved). In this scenario, the sheet of paper can't overcome Newton's momentum law which states that all objects in motion tend to stay in motion (and all objects at rest tend to stay at rest). The exact same thing would happen to a plane on a treadmill. How is the treadmill supposed to counteract the thrust applied to the plane when it can't even counteract Newton's law stating that objects at rest tend to stay at rest?

 

[cmoneyr]

Again, I think you are failing to take into account the force of gravity and the frcition that would cause.

Can we all agree that a plane, chained to a wall, could not take aff regardless of the thrust? I think if we start there then it would be easier to figure this out.

How does that come close to what this problem is saying? Sure, if a plane cannot move then it cannot take off. But a plane on a treadmill isn't incapable of moving, that's the point.

If gravity were a concern then how does a plane take off even under optimal conditions? Or friction for that matter? The reason is because the forces of thrust and lift easily overcome the forces of friction and gravity.

 

[jdoggivjc]

Again, I think you are failing to take into account the force of gravity and the frcition that would cause.

Can we all agree that a plane, chained to a wall, could not take aff regardless of the thrust? I think if we start there then it would be easier to figure this out.

Force of gravity is actually negligible because it's not in the same plane as the force of the thrust, the direction of the treadmill, etc.

The forces of friction you also talk about are also negligible because it doesn't take a whole lot of force to break that force of friction - i.e., a strong human being (or maybe 4 or 5 strong human beings) can get a plane to move by themselves.

 

[wolverine68]

Your wrong in this argument simply because of the example I provided earlier with the die cast car and the sheet of paper. If you put a die cast car on top of a sheet of paper and pull the sheet of paper out from underneath the car, the car will not significantly move (it may move an inch or so, but it will not move the 3-5 feet that your arm moved). In this scenario, the sheet of paper can't overcome Newton's momentum law which states that all objects in motion tend to stay in motion (and all objects at rest tend to stay at rest). The exact same thing would happen to a plane on a treadmill. How is the treadmill supposed to counteract the thrust applied to the plane when it can't even counteract Newton's law stating that objects at rest tend to stay at rest?

Okay, put a matchbox car on a treadmill (flat, not at an angle) and start the treadmill. What will happen to the car?
Now, put a plane on a treadmill, don't start the engines, and what will happen?
Obviously the plane will move backwads, just like the car. Even with free spinning wheels, the plane will move backwards.
Want the plane to stay in the same place? Create thrust. That will keep the plane from moving backwards. Want to move the plane forward? Increase the thrust. But what if the treadmill matches the speed that the thrust creates?
How about this... A matchbox car on an incline will move forward. If that car is on a treadmill that can match the speed that the car can attain, is it possible to keep the car from moving forward?

 

[rahtotheames]

Again, I think you are failing to take into account the force of gravity and the frcition that would cause.

Ok.. 49.99999 mph. As I heard this explained, if the whole plane put their hands out the window, it would have more of an effect than the friction.