What does it take?

Discussion in 'CF Archive Bin' started by brutodd, Oct 3, 2006.

  1. brutodd

    brutodd Member

    Apr 11, 2006
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    As a frequent viewer but infrequent poster, I'd thought I'd throw out this question: What does it take for the ISU Football nation to be completely happy in terms of a coach? We have seemingly beat the proverbial dead dog with a stick listing reasons why a large (or is it just vocal) contingent dislikes the current coaching situation so this is a question to those people:

    What does it take to be happy? How many wins defines a winning program? How many do we want? Do we need winning trends, or go at it like the Florida Marlins and win huge one year or two and then crash the next five? When DMac is gone (whether this year, in five years or when he retires, it's going to happen) how long do we let a coach stick around before we decide that "he's not taking us to where we want to be." What allows a new coach to stick around: is it wins even if we graduate 0-5% of the student-athletes (a-la Cincinnati basketball with Bob Huggins) or is it a combination of both class in the classroom and on the field with great wins?

    And then of course the other half of that question: what allows a coach to be canned?

    A few years back during the Larry Legend Scandal, a prominent donor and booster to the program was quoted as saying that he isn't about supporting just one coach or just one administrator for ISU and that he's not going to pull his money just because a coach is canned or isn't fired: he's about supporting the the student-athletes and ISU.

    While idealistic, it paints a very clear picture of what all of this mess can be: a sport, played by two teams, fighting to win. Sure money and superiority and TV contracts and everything else is intertwined with it, but we are here to support our boys, our team, through thick and thin. No matter who or what is coaching our beloved 'Clonies.
     
  2. amyk33

    amyk33 Active Member

    Mar 29, 2006
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    I think I'm a little too old-fashioned, but Larry Legend should be reserved for Larry Bird references only. That's it.
     
  3. brutodd

    brutodd Member

    Apr 11, 2006
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    Haha my roommate is an ex ISU bball player and that's what they referred to him as...or at least now that's what they call him :)
     
  4. cstrunk

    cstrunk Well-Known Member

    Mar 21, 2006
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    To me, happy is having a well respected and disciplined program that wins 7 games..... in a down year. A few years of 10+ wins and no losing seasons for about 7-8 years could justify a program as being a "winning program."
     
  5. aerosill

    aerosill New Member

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    #5 aerosill, Oct 3, 2006
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2006
    I put football teams into 4 categories: Top Tier (ranked 1-5 nationally), First Tier (ranked 6 - 20), Second Tier (ranked 20-35 or 40), and I Don't Care Anymore About the Tier (ranked below 40).

    DMac has brought us from the bottom (deeply rooted in I Don't Care Anymore About the Tier) to being a good, solid Second Tier team (Kudos to him on this amazing and quick rebuilding). But our expectations are to be a consistent First Tier team.

    For me to be happy, I want the team to consistently be a First Tier team. What cstrunk wants will put us there.

    If we were content with being a Second Tier team, then keep DMac. Otherwise, challenge him to make the team a First Tier team, and hold him accountable if he can't (just give him enough time after you have made that challenge to see if he can meet it). You fire a coach if he really screws up, or can't put the program where you want it to be.
     
  6. Wesley

    Wesley Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2006
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    At least the word Legend connotates a bball player.
     
  7. brutodd

    brutodd Member

    Apr 11, 2006
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    I agree with with aerosill stated; now to anyone, has JP given DMac an ultimatum of sorts (or anybody have any good theories) and if so, how long does it take? Based on the "tier" theory which sounds pretty dang good, does Iowa qualify for a top tier or a second tier?
     
  8. ekim121

    ekim121 Member

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    I guess I'm not sure how everyone thinks ISU is magically going to be a "top tier" or "first tier" team. I hate to be the complacent one, but if we could be ranked anywhere in the polls every year I'd be thrilled. There are very very few teams who are able to consistently stay in the upper eschelon of college football. Even Texas and Oklahoma spent time in the dumps for a few years. On top of that, look at the type of teams you're describing (and implying you want ISU to be)...teams like Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Ohio State, Florida, Miami, USC, Auburn, etc. There are many things that those school have that ISU does not have and probably won't ever have. They are all schools with a long football tradition, all big football states (meaning high school football is huge there and other people recruit those states because of the excess talent), all have amazing facilities, and all can afford top notch coaches. I think we need to be more realistic about our expectations. Would you guys really be unhappy if we consistenly went 7-5/8-4 and had a 10 win season every 10 years or so? That was the level Hayden Fry was at when he was in Iowa City and would any of us complain if the Cyclones equaled the success of Iowa in the 80s?
     
  9. Cyclonepride

    Cyclonepride Thought Police
    Staff Member

    I think the fire McCarney crowd is a very vocal minority. KXNO talked about the Jamie Pollard/ McCarney issue this morning. My thought is that with Pollard you have a man of action. Obviously. With a man of action, you have to take his words at face value. And he has said very publicly that some Cyclone fans don't appreciate the coach that they have in Mac. Which is a large statement of support in my book. Anyone that wants to read more into the situation is fabricating based on their personal bias. The Bball coach situation was completely different. Wayne took a program from probably the first tier, and seemed to be leading them towards the second tier and beyond.
     
  10. Wesley

    Wesley Well-Known Member

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    I would strive for a nine win season every three years. With 13 games and softies at home, this is not beyond expectations. Off years should never be less than six wins because the payoff is so great with a possible bowl game and better recruiting.
     
  11. kgreeny

    kgreeny Well-Known Member

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    I feel the wins and loses don't always tell the whole story. Not only is the number of wins important but we need to win the important ones. We need to win the north, or if not win it, not blow two years in a row. DMac doesn't have to win it every year, but he has not showen that he can or will when it is handed to him. Right now we have the best fan support in FB history. If our program can play in the big 12 championship game, all the new fans are more likely to really fall in love with the program the way that most of us on this site have. And if we ever make a BCS (even once) we start getting to national love. Fans all over the country that have no ties to ISU. We then are making some real progress. I just hate seeing the wasted chances for some thing really special.
     
  12. Wesley

    Wesley Well-Known Member

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    If we do not have six wins, we do not bowl. McC is most proud of bowling five out of six years. The players are better when you bowl. It means national exposure. It means you are not KSU or Coplorasdo like this year. To wuin the North, you need a softer schedule. That is 2008 when TRedville visits Ames. That is why we really screwed up when we lost the North the last two years. We were too conservative. Now with a tougher schedule, we need to go for it and gamble.
     
  13. kurimski

    kurimski Member

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    I would be happy if he would start to bring in some 4 and 5 star recruits. I've always heard how he is an excellent recruiter and he is when it comes to 2 and 3 star athletes. He also gets a lot out of those athletes. why can't he bring in the bigger star athletes? How many 4 and 5 star recruits have we had in the past? Why can't he bring them in? Why doesn't he even really recruit them?
     
  14. Cy Heavy

    Cy Heavy Active Member

    Aug 29, 2006
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    You guys have to be kidding me-you'd be happy with a tier 1 or 2 team? If we don't have a coach in here who strives for the national championship or a BCS game I don't want him.

    I will be forever thankful to Dan for getting us to the respectable status we enjoy now, but we will NEVER be more than a marginal team with him at the helm. In this age of parity, coaches have a small window to get teams to the next level. Dan has had over a decade and we have two marginal bowl victories to show for it.

    I do NOT advocate for the firing of Dan, but we will never be more than a marginal team in marginal bowls with him as the head of this team. I personally have high aspirations for our teams-Dan has not led us there in a dozen years and I do not believe he will during his tenure at ISU.
     
  15. jdoggivjc

    jdoggivjc Well-Known Member

    Sep 27, 2006
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    We'd all love for a National Championship, and it should be an ultimate goal, but that is so far out of reach. WE need to achieve lesser goals first, like winning the North outright and making the Big XII champ game, win the Big XII champ game, have a 10 win season, finish in the final BCS poll, make a BCS bowl game, and then have a 1 loss season. That's a lot to do before we can realistically consider going for a national championship.
     
  16. Wesley

    Wesley Well-Known Member

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    #16 Wesley, Oct 3, 2006
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2006
    The only ones similar to Ames level of atmosphere that I can think of that achieved the extraordinary from the ordinary was Bull Snyder and KSU, Louisville, Virgina Tech, Boston College and Flutie, and Utah one year. Othwerwise the top teams are the usual suspects. Winning ten games is easier now that we play twelve games. Colin Cowherd taslks about fans expectations all the time. Only some schools like USC truly have legitimate hopes for national chanpionship and that has only been the last three years.

    BryceC - What has been the all time highest ranking for the Clones?
     
  17. jdoggivjc

    jdoggivjc Well-Known Member

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    I think I can answer that one - it was #9 in the 2002 season. We were sitting at 6-1 and just smoked Texas Tech (that was the game with the 100-yard circle the field 20-yard touchdown run by Seneca Wallace). We then proceeded to get blasted by Oklahoma and then lost 6 of our last 7 games, including the smurf bowl.
     
  18. cycloneworld

    cycloneworld Facebook Knows All

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    Thank you for being rational! I'm sure every coach WANTS to win a National Championship but we are far, far, far from that point right now. Hell, Iowa has what they call (and pay) a Top 3 coach and they are still a long ways from a National Title. They are a helluva lot closer than us but they are further than many of their own fans think...
     
  19. brutodd

    brutodd Member

    Apr 11, 2006
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    Like others have said, I believe that we should shoot for the "mid range" goals like Big 12 Championship games, and then go up from there. After talking about this last night, I started to wonder, what do people think when they hear ISU? Do they think Seneca, do they think Fred Hoiberg, or do they think Bret Meyer and Todd Blythe? Our national "name recognition" as also somebody mentioned is not in the top 25 schools in the nation when it comes to football. And that is what matters to a high-school 4-star recruit: who has the name recognition, who can get me in a bowl game almost every year, who can get me to The Show in the NFL? What we need is a definable program: something people think of when they hear "ISU vs ____" today on ABC. We think USC and hot cheerleaders...err great quarterbacks and running backs. Nebraska is associated with the Power "I" and a great defense. Va Tech is special teams...on and on. We need, in my opinion, a program, something that we associate our team with.

    After all, what do we as ISU fans think of when we ponder our football team? Is it a running team, a passing team, both, none...what?
     
  20. iccyfan

    iccyfan Well-Known Member

    Sep 6, 2006
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    I've been part of the small but vocal anti-McCarney contingent for three plus years! Here is my rationale: Most ISU supporters thought our program had "turned the corner" with the magical 9-3 season of 2000, capped off by a nice win over Pitt in a desirable bowl destination. In many people's opinions, we "underachieved" the next two seasons while having the best QB in ISU history (Seneca) at the helm. Then we hit rock bottom with the 2-10 season of QB Austin Flynn. Finally, the last two years the Big XII North Championship was ours for the taking, yet we faltered. In the five plus years since the 2000 season ended, ISU's record is 33-34.

    As for the quoted text, I heard McCarney interviewed on KXNO the week following the UNLV game. The interviewer dared to bring up the "overly conservative approach" critics and Mac launched into some blathering tirade that he'd "never heard the word conservative said in any coache's meeting", etc. In short, he entirely refuses to even consider that he's coaching in a "conservative manner", much less acknowledging that his conservatism has likely cost us the last two B12N titles!

    I'll tell you exactly what I want in a coach. I want a guy who'll open up the offense and go for the gusto. As an example, when ISU had Steve Loney as the OC we had Sage running naked bootlegs and J.J. Moses ran two or three reverses most every game. This continued with Seneca and Lane Danielson, but it's been gone the past three years. The boring offense Dan & Barney run has nothing to do with facilities, school tradition or money in the program. It allows lesser teams to stick with us when they shouldn't (Toledo, UNLV, UNI), take momentum away when they shouldn't (Iowa this season, Missou & KU last) and beat us when they shouldn't (Missou X 2, Baylor, Kansas, etc.). When a guy can't learn from his past mistakes, hell Mac can't even acknowledge he's made past mistakes, he's probably outlived his usefulness to the program. JOMHO...
     

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