Philosophical football ?..If Hayden........

Discussion in 'General College Sports' started by cmhawks99, Feb 5, 2010.

  1. cmhawks99

    cmhawks99 Well-Known Member

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    #1 cmhawks99, Feb 5, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
    Had started at ISU would they have had the same success as Iowa over the last 30 years. Now stay with me this isn't a rivalry thread or a thinly veiled jab. I am one who believes because 1+2 at school A = 3, it doesn't always mean the same at school B. I'm also not trashing ISU, because I truly believe in the right circumstance ANY school can become a football power. Or a minor power at least.

    My thought is this.................so many people say things like if we could recruit like USC, or if Kirk Ferentz went to Michigan he'd really win big and I don't necessarily believe that would aotomatically be the case. It "could" happen but it isn't an "automatic". There are a whole lot of things going on there.

    Just like I don't think Pete Carroll would ever sign 10 straight top 10 classes at ISU or Iowa.

    I have other thoughts but I have to take my daughter to gymnastics, what do you guys think?

    Chad
     
  2. d4nim4l

    d4nim4l Well-Known Member

    Apr 23, 2008
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    Fry would have had success at Iowa State easily. He was that good of a coach. Maybe not to the levels he did at Iowa because of the differences in the conferences, alumni, etc. But he would have made a splash in the Big 8.
     
  3. Tre4ISU

    Tre4ISU Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the coach. You're exactly right. Pete Carroll wouldn't win here unless his assistants were great. He needs great players. Kirk doesn't need great players. He needs coachable players. Not the same thing. It is all about fit. Sometimes there isn't a reason a coach fits, they just do.

    There are very few guys you could just throw anywahere. Meyer, Saban, and well that's about it right now. Jury is still out on Kelly.
     
  4. AntiSnob

    AntiSnob Member

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    that is true what chad has said. The biggest "what if" to me is what if Barry Switzer had went to Iowa. Think about it. It makes sense. You hire a southern fried coach that had dominated over the past six years winning two NCs. Like Fry, he had a unique personality and a unique offense.
     
  5. Melvin

    Melvin Well-Known Member

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    Consider this:

    What if Woody Hayes does not punch that Clemson kid and Earl Bruce stays at ISU and continues to put up 8 win Seasons? Does Fry get fired after 5 years because he can't beat ISU?
     
  6. ISUboi12

    ISUboi12 Well-Known Member

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    Kirk Ferentz > Hayden Fry. I truly believe he will have Iowa playing for a NC before he is done.
     
  7. clonedude

    clonedude Well-Known Member

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    I definately believe Hayden could have taken ISU just as far as he did with Iowa.

    Remember... Iowa was not a good football program at all before Hayden got there. Iowa and ISU were in similar shape when Hayden took over.

    Also remember that KF still has a losing record against ISU I believe? Yes, he's had a lot more success with Iowa than ISU has, but ISU has been one of his toughest games to win.
     
  8. cyowa

    cyowa Member

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    I remember ISU being in better shape than Iowa at that time, but if things had been reversed, ISU gets Fry and Iowa gets Duncan, ISU would have flourished and Iowa would have continued to be awful.. I believe Fry was that good and Donnie was really that bad.
     
  9. JUKEBOX

    JUKEBOX Well-Known Member

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    If Earl stayed, we'd be the dominant football program in the state.
     
  10. CyFever

    CyFever Active Member

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    I don't know what the university administration commitment to success was at Iowa when Fry arrived, but up until President Geoffrey, it's been abysmal at ISU.
     
  11. MNCyGuy

    MNCyGuy Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought this would have been the biggest factor. Would Fry have been able to overcome a lack of funds preventing him from keeping the program on pace with the rest of college football.
     
  12. jsmith86

    jsmith86 Well-Known Member

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    This. To compete, especially with the schools we play against now, we need more money. There are a few ways to go about this:

    1. find someone to donate about $100 million.

    2. (and the most likely way) start winning some games year after year and build up, over time, a fan base that is loyal and willing to donate some money.

    3. get the Big XII rule book rewritten so that all money made from bowl games is funneled to the ISU athletic department.
     
  13. MookInLincoln

    MookInLincoln Well-Known Member

    It is an interesting hypothetical question, and ultimately I think the answer would have been no. Fry would not have had the success at ISU that he had at Iowa, and ISU would not be in the same position that Iowa is in now.

    I know the question has been posed simply for discussion, but I still think it's a mute point because I don't think that Fry would have ever taken the ISU job. I don't think he would have ever taken the job for all the reasons I don't think he would have won in Ames. There were and still are a long list of built-in disadvantages to winning at Iowa State. They are different now than they were 30 years ago, but they still exist.
     
  14. jsmith86

    jsmith86 Well-Known Member

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    My feeling is that anytime a school gets a decent coach to stay for that amount of time, they will become a much stronger program.
     
  15. JUKEBOX

    JUKEBOX Well-Known Member

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  16. cmhawks99

    cmhawks99 Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff and you got the gist of what I was saying. Not that everyone else didn't as well, but you seem locked into my personal thoughts, plus I haven't got very far yet............

    I see it happen in the car business all the time. Salesman or manger X is phenomenal & one of the best in the industry at point A. Suddenly however he finds himself at point B and he is average at best or worse. Moving on to C, he is suddenly rejuvenated and back to his winning ways.

    Chad
     
  17. cmhawks99

    cmhawks99 Well-Known Member

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    More good stuff in here.................

    1st I agree with ISUboi12 in that KF is better than Fry though many an Iowa fan will fight you at that statement

    I also think HF would have had success at ISU (incidentally that wasn't the main thrust of this dialogue, though I know that's where I started) but as others said, I'm not sure ISU truly had the commitment to excellence that was needed to even lure him there. As I have said numerous times ISU was way above Iowa at that time yet Iowa was still piling 50K into a losing stadium and ISU couldn't hardly reach half capacity. I was at an ISU game in the late 70's as a youngster and I still remember running all over the stands since no one was there.

    Something that jumped off the page at me, that buttresses up against my thoughts is the KF versus ISU record thing. KF is like 5-6 vs ISU but, 7-2 vs PSU. Something's don't make sense and I'm convinced KF wouldn't necessarily be that much better a coach with top 10 classes or Mack Brown would win 9 games a year at Louisville. Nor do I necessarily think Saban would. Meyer maybe I don't know. KF I think would be able to win most anywhere, but I'm not sure he'd mesh with all the prima donnas and I'm not sure he'd recruit many of them. Honestly despite the cries of some Iowa fans I think he goes after mostly who he wants now. Sometimes he swings and misses, but I don't think he is even offering a ton of 4 star kids, because as was said, I think he is going after athletes who can be "coached". Not super stars who can "play"

    I think Jim Walden is an example he won a little before he got to ISU, but he was mostly an epic failure there. Would Bobby Stoops be as good at Iowa is he is OU, maybe, maybe not? Would KF be as good at OU as he is at Iowa?

    I think it comes down to fit and atmosphere, I really do. I also think you can't out recruit your philosophies or you find yourself in no man's land.

    Chad
     
  18. cmhawks99

    cmhawks99 Well-Known Member

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    Mook above you made some good points and I'll confess until recently I never realized how limed ISU was financially. All the same I think what you said above is very true. If you can get a guy to stay, or who "can" stay it makes a difference.

    Chad
     
  19. cutshot

    cutshot Member

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    There are several things in play here. First, when Fry took the Iowa job, there were only 2 schools in the Big X that were very good at all. Soooo, initially he was automatically playing for 3rd place. Secondly, he was the master of psychology - he messed with peoples heads and they didn't even realize it. Third, he had a pipeline to Texas that all of a sudden brought several high quality players to the Hawks that were really difference makers. He also started to throw the ball instead of trying to just knock someone off the line of scrimmage and say "here we come"

    Iowa State replaced Earl with Donnie and he brought Crutchfield with him. Based on that he thought he could run the ball down everyone's throat and didn't have to do anything else. Then, he really screwed up in his recruiting. Thought that just because someone was from the south, they automatically were going to be successful. That was the beginning of the end, the rest is history.

    Iowa got lucky with Ferentz. They really got a person who understands the state and identifies with the people of Iowa. He also has assembled a staff that is content to recruit players who fit their system and not just those who have stars. They do a great job of developing those players. They definitely do a great job of doing more with less.

    That's what I see with CPR. A person who passionately loves the University and is being patient with developing his staff and players. He's content to bring in players who want to be Cyclones and are willing to put the effort and hard work into making themselves Big XII quality players. It's going to take a couple of years, but you can see it already. His kids play hard, they are where they're supposed to be, doing what they're supposed to be doing, when they're supposed to be there. They may still be a little short on talent/strength/and speed, but the effort is there and as the quality of recruiting increases, so will the victories.
     
  20. cmhawks99

    cmhawks99 Well-Known Member

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    I very much agree with you about CPR, he is on his way.

    You also made a great point about Fry's arrival to the Big 10. In fact from 1981 to 1990 Iowa was the 2nd winningest team in the 80's. It is much tougher now and goes a long ways to showing how good KF has been. He is currently right on top of UM (1 game behind) since 2001.

    My only point of contention, though I do get your point. Is the more with less thought. I think it is insulting to our student athletes. Yes we sign lower rated classes. But those lower rated classes are blowing up the NFL and I think CPR needs to and will do the same.

    Chad
     

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