Help defense -- Is it over rated?

Discussion in 'CF Archive Bin' started by Jerry1982, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Jerry1982

    Jerry1982 Member

    Sep 3, 2006
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    "Help defense" is used after somebody gets beat. It's good team play. However, does depending on it hurt your overall quality of defense? It drives me nuts to see us over-defending a wing man, letting them go baseline on us and depending on our post players to pick up the slack. It must be coached though, as this practice is prevalent thoughout the NCAA.
    I'd rather see good one-on-one defense that does not over-play. Put a stop on your man and make him squirm. This will pull his teammates towards him, hopefully disrupting their offense. Is this why I never made it past grade school coaching? Comments?
     
  2. amyk33

    amyk33 Active Member

    Mar 29, 2006
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    This is an interesting topic. I think this has just become the nature of the game. More players are "over playing" and relying on the help because of the stronger outside 3-pt shooting and the opportunity to pick off a pass.

    I see it almost as part of the job of the post players to not only cover their man, but be the helper when on the weak side.
     
  3. bawbie

    bawbie Moderator
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    Mar 17, 2006
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    No one has 5 players who can guard the outside shot, fight through a pick and stop a drive 100% of the time. It's impossible. Thus the need for help defense.
     
  4. isucyfan

    isucyfan Speechless

    Apr 21, 2006
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    I agree with what you're saying about help. Ideally, no one would ever need it, but the offensive player IMO always holds some advantage over the defensive...he knows where he is going to go. Then he beats his guy, and needs help. I also think that over-playing someone can be valuable, too, as it disrupts the team's offense if they are denying an entry pass or something. But I haven't even made it to the grade school coaching level yet, so take this for what it is worth!
     
  5. Jerry1982

    Jerry1982 Member

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    Post players get in more foul trouble because of it. Amy, I agree, the 3 pt. shot has made coaches squeeze the shooters more. I just don't recall such an emphasis on over-playing defense before the Three.
     
  6. clone52

    clone52 Well-Known Member

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    Not only is ball pressure needed to stop the three, it also hampers the player's ability to pass. Ball pressure can help cover up some mistakes away from the ball.
     
  7. amyk33

    amyk33 Active Member

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    When did the 3-pter get added? I am WAY too young to remember! :wink0st:
     
  8. CYdTracked

    CYdTracked Well-Known Member

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    #8 CYdTracked, Dec 6, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006
    I have no issue with help defense as long as it means that it consistently results in a defensive stop. The problem is in order play help defense other players have to know when to actually help which is something we haven't done well with yet. The last 2 games there were several instances where UNI or Drake took it right to the hole and the nearest defender didn't hardly think to leave his man to help alter the shot.

    Which is worse, leaving your man in an attempt in hope that the player driving to the basket forces a bad shot but instead passes to the guy left for a basket or not leaving your man and letting the guy with the ball continue uncontested to the basket? I would rather have someone come over and help because chances are better that he forces a shot or turns it over.
     
  9. cgwarrior33

    cgwarrior33 Member

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    Its all about the coaches defensive philosophy and the team you are playing. Help defense is never overrated. I understand that it gets the post players in foul trouble sometimes, but you also have to look at what they are doing. Are they helping out while being out of control? Are reaching? I agree that most of the time the post player gets hung out to dry, but he also has to be smart in his help. There also needs to be backside rotation. The opposite wing or post needs to be able to step over help the help, or in other words, take the man the helper had. Everyone has to be rotating. A lot of times the backside falls asleep or is hugging their man so they aren't in good position. The thing I hate the most is when people give up baseline. So many bad things happen when there is baseling penetration. The over playing on the wings is to deny wing entry or ball reversal. The three point shot has brought this into effect with s many players being able to consistantly hit the three. It also depends on how coaches want to defend the screens. Do they like to lock and trail or do they want to go through the middle? Locking and trailing gives up the curl forcing some help and a possibility for a slip screen. Through the middle opens up the fade and the opportunity to get beat sideline or baseline. Obviously you are going to give something up because no one system is perfect. It is a matter of knowing what you are giving up and your ability to recover to that. On ball defense is a little different. The worst is when someone is too close and picks up a cheap foul or gets beat. You have to be in a position to contain and still contest the shot. Also, if you do get beat, you need to be hustling to get back in front of yours, or if someone steps up for help-side, you need to be scrambling to his or the next open man. Help defense works great as long as everyone is in good defensive position and they know where they need to rotate.

    There are many more variables to take into account, a good 3pt shooting team, a team with some stud post players...etc... those also determine how you defend things, but thats way too much to think about and I dont think most people want to hear me lecture about this all day.
     
  10. Kramer

    Kramer Member

    Nov 14, 2006
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    I disagree that help defense is only used after someone gets beat. As an example, when the ball is at the wing and their is somebody helping in case of a lob, that positioning on the floor helps take away a part of their offense. In the case of overplaying, your point is well taken. However, keep in mind that when a player has all of his offensive options available, he can be VERY difficult to defend. By overplaying and eliminating one side of the floor that the player can drive to, it can become easier to defend. Just an opinion.
     
  11. Jerry1982

    Jerry1982 Member

    Sep 3, 2006
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    So... do you think coaches accept a percentage of "escapes" on the baseline in order to prevent reversals or penetrations at the elbow? My thought: NO BASELINE. Our posts get hurt the worst there. Backside wingman is trouble. You name it.
     
  12. Costanza

    Costanza Member

    Nov 18, 2006
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    I disagree with the BASELINE being the worst. If a defender gives up the middle there is 360 degrees that the ball can be passed. If the ball is kept on the baseline you gain a defender. Good defensive teams will slide and cut off the baseline, meanwhile the backside players will rotate to take away passing lanes. This really narrows the offense's options. This is the same principle a lot of teams are using in their halfcourt zones.
     
  13. cgwarrior33

    cgwarrior33 Member

    Mar 27, 2006
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    Our posts get hurt because we allow the penetrator to get to deep. Once there is penetration there needs to be a collapse to the lane and the nearest pressure release. I would like to see us fully committ to trapping the penetrator. This would bring the baseline into play and give us and extra defender. It only works if we can collapse to the post quick to take that away . You would have a triple team basically on the ball...counting the baseline...the post is covered, rotation over to take the nearest pass, and one person playing free safety. As long as recovery angles are good and everything from there is forced up the floor we would be ok. Its alot easier to show on the floor than to type it out.

    It all depends on what that coach teaches and the talent you have. The baseline drive causes defenses to pretty much toally collapse leaving many options open. Forcing the ball up the floor allows for easier help and recover positions as well as rebounding. I look at us here at ISU. Offensively we are atrocious. We do not have a Jake Sullivan or Homan type players for teams to worry about. We are going to have trouble scoring. We know that, the other teams know that. This comes from having two different styles of play in two years and defects. If we have go to players like Curtis or Will here, it'd be a little different story. We need our defense to fuel our offense. We need to create turnovers that lead to easy buckets because we are going to have trouble excuting people to death right now. Our length with Rashon, Wesley, and Jessan give teams trouble. We have very long and athletic wings with allow us to get up into passing lanes and look for steals. This also helps our post D out because the wing entry isn't always there so it disrupts not only the flow, but the entry angle into the post. Our post defenders are on an island. It all goes back to the philosophy. There are positives and negatives for everything. It gets down to doing what gives your team the best chance to win. We relied on that zone for so long that our players learned bad habits. We also have a group of guys who have not played all the much together, and its showing its ugly face right now. Once all 5 guys know how each person is going to react, you will see a cohesive bunch and we wont worry about things. You have to have faith in your help defense otherwise you are tenative and you get destroyed. Knowing you have help side allows you to over play and know what you are giving up and what your options are.
     
  14. cgwarrior33

    cgwarrior33 Member

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    There are pros and cons for both. You never GIVE someone the paint, but you want to force them up the floor. When you give up baseline you force your post to step out and your back side wing to collapse, giving the cross court baseline pass to a wing who flatens out to the corner, and then you are screwed. You are also not in good rebound position on a shot shortly after.

    Forcing things up the floor gives a chance for someone to jab step and recover, not having to totally leave their man and staying in solid defensive position.

    Zones are destroyed on penetration. They force the defense to suck in and leave open kick outs. Middle penetration and Baseline penetration kill zones. Zone principles are based on areas of the floor not people. So it makes it easier for teams to overload a side and not really have to worry about getting stuck on the baseline because someone and flash behind to get open. This is exactly how we got killed last year. On the ball reversal to the corner we allowed baseline drives and our post would step up and then it was just a dump pass for a wide open layup, or they would get it kicked out for an open jumper.

    Obviously there isn't a perfect system, but you need to do things that give your team a chance to win and only the coaches know what that is.
     
  15. dbronco7sc

    dbronco7sc Well-Known Member

    Mar 25, 2006
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    #15 dbronco7sc, Dec 6, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006
    It all depends on the shooter too, I'm sure they go over tape you have to play help defense against good 3pt shooters and if they're not so great at the three, say Stinson, then don't let him drive but let him shoot some more long shots, because you know if he drives you you're screwed, and he's not the most accurate long range guy.

    Edit: As for our team, we're still working on our stuff offensively and the basics of our defense to try to worry about our opponents as much. There's so many things to think about that until the basics of our game become second nature, we can't expect our guys to be focusing on all of the other things as well.

    Watching GMac's post game, I think that's what he basically got at with UNI and Drake, those players already know their system, they could focus on us. Whereas, our players already have so much to think about, that though GMac knows the UNI players, feeding all that info to our guys would just overload them too much.
     
  16. Kramer

    Kramer Member

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    Yep...a sure way to slow someone's feet is to put too much in his head.
     
  17. booyaa187

    booyaa187 Member

    Aug 23, 2006
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    The Cyclones must have read this thread. That was the worst display of help defense I've seen in quite sometime. How many clear path dunks/lay ups did they have? A LOT!! I stopped and replayed a play where Gray just watched a player drive right past him and make a lay up after Taylor got beat off the dribble.

    Help defense in not overrated!!
     

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