Big plans unveiled for Court Avenue District - theater, urban HyVee, etc.

  • After Iowa State won the Big 12, a Cyclone made a wonderful offer to We Will that now increases our match. Now all gifts up to $400,000 between now and the Final 4 will be matched. Please consider giving at We Will Collective.
    This notice can be dismissed using the upper right corner X button.

Rhoadhoused

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2010
11,211
245
63
32
Ames, IA
How much is rent in downtown Des Moines? It has to be pretty hefty. Would be tough to pay that large of an amount and not have a convenient grocery store....
 

cycloneted

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2006
615
286
63
Des Moines
I agree that the downtown needs a grocery store but this is a terrible location for one. 5th and Court are both low traffic, two lane roads with very little free (if any) parking. The location is also not very convenient for the majority of downtown residents who will be Western Gateway, MLK area, East Village. It will be a cluster to get in and out of that place, plus you are clogging 30k feet of prime real estate with a boring property. With the new large apartments complex South of MLK that would be a perfect place for a supermarket. It would have direct access to MLK which is basically the gateway to downtown and easy to hit from all areas of the downtown area. YOu could build it right on the street with an entrance and parking to the side so it would be an easy walk from Court Ave but also drivable.

I can't think of any other "Entertainment district" in the country that has a grocery store as it's primary anchor. There are plenty of places to put a grocery store, I just don't think this is the right one.

View attachment 25083

I think this is a pretty good idea, but would it make everyone have to drive to Hy Vee? I think that would be a drawback.
 

yankeeclone

New Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Nov 24, 2006
26
0
1
Des Moines
I think it's funny that almost all of the people that don't think this is a good location, or are against the idea don't live downtown.
 

cybsball20

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2006
12,740
438
83
Des Moines, IA
I think this is a pretty good idea, but would it make everyone have to drive to Hy Vee? I think that would be a drawback.

Within three years there will be about 5 times more people living between MLK and the river than on Court Ave. It will be walkable (med size walk) from 10th st, Court ave area and all of the new places popping up south of MLK
 

yankeeclone

New Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Nov 24, 2006
26
0
1
Des Moines
Within three years there will be about 5 times more people living between MLK and the river than on Court Ave. It will be walkable (med size walk) from 10th st, Court ave area and all of the new places popping up south of MLK

I am holding out hope that they will use that location for a target.
 

cycloneted

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2006
615
286
63
Des Moines
Within three years there will be about 5 times more people living between MLK and the river than on Court Ave. It will be walkable (med size walk) from 10th st, Court ave area and all of the new places popping up south of MLK

Five times? That's a lot of building. I hope you're right, but a lot of people live in the Court Ave. area, but I guess the "Court Ave. area" in my mind includes a lot of buildings.
 

Tri4Cy

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Apr 4, 2012
1,521
1,421
113
Des Moines
I kind of like the idea. A good friend of mine owned a condo in Minneapolis that was above a grocery store. I think there was only street parking (one side) and a 20 min lot (20-30 spots) across the street. The store supported the condo's/appts near by and it seemed most people biked/walked. Since it was so close/convenient people didn't seem to be making your typical "I'm going to the store once a week and buying $100 in food" type trips.
 

yankeeclone

New Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Nov 24, 2006
26
0
1
Des Moines
Within three years there will be about 5 times more people living between MLK and the river than on Court Ave. It will be walkable (med size walk) from 10th st, Court ave area and all of the new places popping up south of MLK

If 5 times more people move into that area, they will be able to have their own grocery store.
 

Rods79

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2006
3,536
1,220
113
Des Moines
I agree that the downtown needs a grocery store but this is a terrible location for one. 5th and Court are both low traffic, two lane roads with very little free (if any) parking. The location is also not very convenient for the majority of downtown residents who will be Western Gateway, MLK area, East Village. It will be a cluster to get in and out of that place, plus you are clogging 30k feet of prime real estate with a boring property. With the new large apartments complex South of MLK that would be a perfect place for a supermarket. It would have direct access to MLK which is basically the gateway to downtown and easy to hit from all areas of the downtown area. YOu could build it right on the street with an entrance and parking to the side so it would be an easy walk from Court Ave but also drivable.

I can't think of any other "Entertainment district" in the country that has a grocery store as it's primary anchor. There are plenty of places to put a grocery store, I just don't think this is the right one.

View attachment 25083

There are parking garages and surface lots in nearly all of the proposals, so I don't think parking should be much of a concern. And I believe the point is to add an amenity within walking distance to most of the residents who live downtown now, to help spur development in order to increase density and diversity along Court Avenue and the surrounding areas. There are plenty of spaces available along Court Avenue for the right developer, and this block is on the end of the street anyhow.

If you want an example of a grocery store in the "entertainment district"...there is Cosentino's in downtown KC. This is a poor example though, because downtown KC has a whole different slew of problems. The P&L district wasn't going anywhere without that, and it appears they are still many years behind after focusing on the creation of this weird, drinky-Disneyland. Des Moines would be wise not to look to KC as an example.

But more to your point, South of MLK would be a good area for another store in the future.
 

cybsball20

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2006
12,740
438
83
Des Moines, IA
So you put a store south of MLK and you have two withing .25 miles of each other? Do people really want to pay to park to go to a grocery store? The majority of apartments on Court Ave are income restricted and basically party pads for people in the service industry, they aren't going to be your primary customers anyway.
 

yankeeclone

New Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Nov 24, 2006
26
0
1
Des Moines
So you put a store south of MLK and you have two withing .25 miles of each other? Do people really want to pay to park to go to a grocery store? The majority of apartments on Court Ave are income restricted and basically party pads for people in the service industry, they aren't going to be your primary customers anyway.

So are you saying the people that are in restricted housing don't go to the grocery store? Downtown can't support 2 stores now, but if development were to explode south of MLK like some are arguing it could.
 

capitalcityguy

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2007
8,332
2,124
113
Des Moines
I agree that the downtown needs a grocery store but this is a terrible location for one. 5th and Court are both low traffic, two lane roads with very little free (if any) parking. The location is also not very convenient for the majority of downtown residents who will be Western Gateway, MLK area, East Village. It will be a cluster to get in and out of that place, plus you are clogging 30k feet of prime real estate with a boring property. With the new large apartments complex South of MLK that would be a perfect place for a supermarket. It would have direct access to MLK which is basically the gateway to downtown and easy to hit from all areas of the downtown area. YOu could build it right on the street with an entrance and parking to the side so it would be an easy walk from Court Ave but also drivable.

I can't think of any other "Entertainment district" in the country that has a grocery store as it's primary anchor. There are plenty of places to put a grocery store, I just don't think this is the right one.

View attachment 25083

IMO, most of your complaints are the type you consider for suburban type planning. Which this isn't. This had to be located close to the core of downtown....not on the other side of a 4-lane parkway (MLK) . They’re not building this to pull in people from neighborhoods that require driving to get there (although some will….which is why the modest flat parking lot was necessary). How's that "walk" to the grocery store in February going sell to potential downtown residents? Most people are drawn to urban settings for the convenience of walking places. Yes there is development going on south of MLK but the high rent district where conveniences are expected is going to be north of MLK.

Additionally, I can't think of anything more short-sighted then having a city like Des Moines known for its skywalk system that serves downtown to protect people from the elements and then building a grocery store and NOT locating it where there is access to the system. (Court Ave location is across the street from an access point). This would seem like the typical joke railed against something only the gov’t could manage to fail to properly plan for.

I can only imagine a potential downtown resident admiring and looking forward to using the extensive skywalk system that seems to go anywhere only to find out they’ll still need to subject themselves humid Augusts and frigid January Iowa weather anytime they plan to walk to the “downtown†grocery store. They’ll be like….why pay downtown prices if that is what you’re offering me?? I can get that lifestyle anywhere….and for less money.
 

cybsball20

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2006
12,740
438
83
Des Moines, IA
CCG, your argument for having it on the skywalk system makes me think it needs to be included in the new Walnut St development. From the sounds of it, they want that area to be more chain type stores and largeer retailers, wouldn't it make more sense to have a store there? You could have it connected to the skywalk and help fill empty space quicker.
 

capitalcityguy

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2007
8,332
2,124
113
Des Moines
So you put a store south of MLK and you have two withing .25 miles of each other? Do people really want to pay to park to go to a grocery store? The majority of apartments on Court Ave are income restricted and basically party pads for people in the service industry, they aren't going to be your primary customers anyway.

The majority of downtown residences are not income restricted and the 1,500 in the pipleline are mostly all market rate. Also, it is not like the income restricted places are Section 8 housing. In fact, what is going to help Hy-Vee is that a lot of their workers will qualfiy for this type of housing thus eliminating the costly expense of commuting as part of their family budget.
 

capitalcityguy

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2007
8,332
2,124
113
Des Moines
CCG, your argument for having it on the skywalk system makes me think it needs to be included in the new Walnut St development. From the sounds of it, they want that area to be more chain type stores and largeer retailers, wouldn't it make more sense to have a store there? You could have it connected to the skywalk and help fill empty space quicker.

It is still Iowa. You have to have some surface parking too. That is what makes it so difficult to find the "perfect" location for a grocer in downtown des moines.
 

cybsball20

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2006
12,740
438
83
Des Moines, IA
The majority of downtown residences are not income restricted and the 1,500 in the pipleline are mostly all market rate. Also, it is not like the income restricted places are Section 8 housing. In fact, what is going to help Hy-Vee is that a lot of their workers will qualfiy for this type of housing thus eliminating the costly expense of commuting as part of their family budget.

I am not saying downtown, I am saying Court Ave and I know they aren't Section 8, but the majority are very young, 18-25 and in a service profession. Have you been in the apartments around Court Ave? Reminds me a LOT of college, including the puke stains every Sunday morning
 

bringmagicback

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2009
7,858
1,110
83
CF Resident Dog Lover
IMO, most of your complaints are the type you consider for suburban type planning. Which this isn't. This had to be located close to the core of downtown....not on the other side of a 4-lane parkway (MLK) . They’re not building this to pull in people from neighborhoods that require driving to get there (although some will….which is why the modest flat parking lot was necessary). How's that "walk" to the grocery store in February going sell to potential downtown residents? Most people are drawn to urban settings for the convenience of walking places. Yes there is development going on south of MLK but the high rent district where conveniences are expected is going to be north of MLK.

Additionally, I can't think of anything more short-sighted then having a city like Des Moines known for its skywalk system that serves downtown to protect people from the elements and then building a grocery store and NOT locating it where there is access to the system. (Court Ave location is across the street from an access point). This would seem like the typical joke railed against something only the gov’t could manage to fail to properly plan for.

I can only imagine a potential downtown resident admiring and looking forward to using the extensive skywalk system that seems to go anywhere only to find out they’ll still need to subject themselves humid Augusts and frigid January Iowa weather anytime they plan to walk to the “downtown” grocery store. They’ll be like….why pay downtown prices if that is what you’re offering me?? I can get that lifestyle anywhere….and for less money.

I was drawn to downtown living for the ability to pluck drunk girls out of the bar like a sniper
 

capitalcityguy

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2007
8,332
2,124
113
Des Moines
I am not saying downtown, I am saying Court Ave and I know they aren't Section 8, but the majority are very young, 18-25 and in a service profession. Have you been in the apartments around Court Ave? Reminds me a LOT of college, including the puke stains every Sunday morning

Yes I'm familiar with the area and somehow the area still attracts 20,000 - 30,000 individuals and families every Saturday for Farmer's Mkt. IMO, this is much ado about nothing.
 

CycloneWarrior

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Jan 10, 2008
3,818
243
63
Urbandale,Ia
Downtown needs to draw people by having events and other activities to do. I think the movie theatre/bowling alley, is a good idea, but I wish it could be more like a century 21 at jordan creek. Whatever they decide, I am very excited to see what Downtown Des Moines looks like in 10-15 yrs.