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    Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Very interesting article on MSNBC: Need for immigrant labor threatens bill - U.S. Business - MSNBC.com

    I guess we can see who congress is worried about serving. It's the guys who line their wallets, and fill their campaign funds. Definitely not their constituents.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Shocking....



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Not especially surprising. That's why there is so much compromise possible on immigration. Bleeding heart liberals want to be nice to people, and big business republicans want to help business. The final product we get is a hodgepodge of crap.

    Everyone agrees that the first thing that needs to be done is to secure the border, for national security sake if nothing else. We then need a single standardized database to organize information about who is and is not in the country. Once we can securely regulate who gets into the country I would be in favor of a fairly liberal immigration policy.

    On a somewhat related note, I get a bit frustrated at the people who get angry with the immigrants themselves. Most come here and work hard at crappy jobs so they can send money back to support their family. The legal option, for which there is about a 10 year waiting list, is not an especially good option from these people's point of view. I know I would be doing the same thing if I was in their situation.

    Also, I haven't looked into the current bill too closely, but from what I understand it is far from "amnesty" and if I'm not too confused then all the people calling it that should get a swift kick in the nuts. From what I understand, illegal immigrants would have to go back to their own country and wait in line to get in legally. When that wait is 10 or more years that is far from amnesty. Like I said, I haven't looked into the bill very closely so if I'm wrong about this someone please correct me.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Not especially surprising. That's why there is so much compromise possible on immigration. Bleeding heart liberals want to be nice to people, and big business republicans want to help business. The final product we get is a hodgepodge of crap.

    Everyone agrees that the first thing that needs to be done is to secure the border, for national security sake if nothing else. We then need a single standardized database to organize information about who is and is not in the country. Once we can securely regulate who gets into the country I would be in favor of a fairly liberal immigration policy.

    On a somewhat related note, I get a bit frustrated at the people who get angry with the immigrants themselves. Most come here and work hard at crappy jobs so they can send money back to support their family. The legal option, for which there is about a 10 year waiting list, is not an especially good option from these people's point of view. I know I would be doing the same thing if I was in their situation.

    Also, I haven't looked into the current bill too closely, but from what I understand it is far from "amnesty" and if I'm not too confused then all the people calling it that should get a swift kick in the nuts. From what I understand, illegal immigrants would have to go back to their own country and wait in line to get in legally. When that wait is 10 or more years that is far from amnesty. Like I said, I haven't looked into the bill very closely so if I'm wrong about this someone please correct me.
    I agree with most of your points. But excuse me if I stop for a moment to get my cup on. The reason I think people are calling this amnesty, is some of the provisions or amendments in this bill. The first point would be, if we have laws now, and noone is enforcing them, who really believes we will enforce the new ones? Second, there are all sorts of people resisting a proposed amendment that would penalize those illegals who ignore the new law, or who have a history of committing crimes here.

    I'll issue a rock solid guaranteed prediction right now. Within 6 months of passing, we will start to see all kinds of "human interest" stories in the media, about how these new laws are putting good, honest, would be citizens through tough times.

    I would support a bill that would lock down the border in a serious way, streamline the path to citizenship for those who go about it the right way, placing an emphasis on those with desirable skills, and imposing strong penalties (including barring future citizenship) on those who break our laws and come here illegally anyway.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I would support a bill that would lock down the border in a serious way, streamline the path to citizenship for those who go about it the right way, placing an emphasis on those with desirable skills, and imposing strong penalties (including barring future citizenship) on those who break our laws and come here illegally anyway.
    I can't really disagree with anything you said except the bolded part. As I mentioned previously, I can't really blame them for coming illegally given their situation. Strong penalties against those that come illegally will likely have little deterrent effect given the status of many of these people's lives in their home country. Unless the wait to get in is somehow decreased to a more reasonable amount of time (I'll go with 3 years or less), which I don't see happening any time soon, then I couldn't support much beyond deportation.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    I can't really disagree with anything you said except the bolded part. As I mentioned previously, I can't really blame them for coming illegally given their situation. Strong penalties against those that come illegally will likely have little deterrent effect given the status of many of these people's lives in their home country. Unless the wait to get in is somehow decreased to a more reasonable amount of time (I'll go with 3 years or less), which I don't see happening any time soon, then I couldn't support much beyond deportation.
    My only disagreement of sort against that argument is that no foreign citizen has a "right" to be here or to be granted citizenship, correct? It is a great honor and privlege to be an American and people who demand it, steal it (by coming in illegally) or are impatient waiting for it need to realize that. I completely understand that things are tough in other parts of the world, but we need to protect our country and demand that people do things correctly to get here and earn that privilege. No exceptions in my book.

    I agree that we need to streamline the process for considering people for citizenship, but I certainly don't want to give the impression that they somehow have a right to come to our country and gain citizenship.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    I totally agree with the notion of being able to see every/document every person who enters the United States, but I think I differ from most here in that I think anyone who shows up, at any port of entry, should be granted entry and citizenship to the United States. I think its a bit of a double standard for people to celebrate their status as an American and deny it to others. The true essence of being American is having pride in the fact that we understand freedom and liberty more so than any other nation on Earth. In the same sense that I'm proud that my ancestors came here to make a better life in a free enterprise system, I'd be proud to welcome all those who desire to come here and make that same dream a reality.

    The only real difficulty I see is the argument that immigrants aren't paying taxes, don't pay social security, cost us money in uninsured hospital bills, etc...The proper response to this, however, is not to ban immigrants but to re-examine why those things exist. I would argue that most immigrants don't want hand outs, thus why the came here in the first place, because relative to where they came from we don't put up barriers to their success. Those few barriers that we do have, as mentioned above, I view as illigetimate and as such are not an argument against immigration, but an argument for their abolishment. If there were no government imposed systems of "redistribution" then it would be a non-issue. Those who wanted to work would work, and those who didn't would perish as they would no longer be sustained by those who do work.

    Sorry for the long statement...just thought I'd add my $0.02.


    Last edited by ekim121; 06-07-2007 at 09:30 AM. Reason: poor grammar/spelling

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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Unfortunately this immigration situation is going to be an impossible one to fix. The biggest problem we have is that we are the product of our own ego's. What jobs are these immigrants doing? High class high paying jobs? NO They are doing the jobs that we Americans are either TOO lazy to do because it is actually manual labor or it doesn't pay $30/hour. So we complain because they are taking away our jobs, but I guarantee you if they are deported, I don't want to be the guy trying to find Americans to fill the jobs. I grew up on a farm and spent my summers baling hay and working livestock. It was hard work and I loved it. Try finding a high school kid now who is willing to work outside of air conditioning or in a job that isn't 9-5. They're out there, but there is not many of them.

    And just in case your asking, I don't have any immigrants working for me. I just know in my jobs in Agriculture that hiring for manual labor jobs is one of the reasons that drove me out of my last job. We as Americans are about as lazy as a whole as you can get. Iowa might be one of the few exceptions, but we are trending that way fast.

    I don't like the crime rate and the jibber-jabber you have to listen too with immigrants in the area, but I also know they are filling employment that we don't like, so it is going to be impossible to fix IMO.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I guess we can see who congress is worried about serving. It's the guys who line their wallets, and fill their campaign funds. Definitely not their constituents.
    Exactly right.

    Maybe Tom Witosky is working on this "breaking news" story.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Ron Paul 2008!!!!!!!!!!!!



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    I can't really disagree with anything you said except the bolded part. As I mentioned previously, I can't really blame them for coming illegally given their situation.
    So you want to start down the slippery slope that ends up in everyone doing whatever they think is right in their own eyes? Laws on coming into this country are set and if people choose to not follow them they should be punished. Your line of thinking is a little odd. So if I have some bad luck and need some money for my family it's ok to break a law in that case? Where do you draw the line?

    And do people honestly think that the jobs these unlawful people hold would not be filled by legal citizens if they were available? If these illegals were shipped out of the country to get in line maybe the wages for these jobs would actually rise a little bit to levels that allow a person to actual sustain a living on them. Not to mention the fact that unskilled, lawful immigrants would then snatch up the jobs as well.



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by ekim121 View Post
    I totally agree with the notion of being able to see every/document every person who enters the United States, but I think I differ from most here in that I think anyone who shows up, at any port of entry, should be granted entry and citizenship to the United States. I think its a bit of a double standard for people to celebrate their status as an American and deny it to others. The true essence of being American is having pride in the fact that we understand freedom and liberty more so than any other nation on Earth. In the same sense that I'm proud that my ancestors came here to make a better life in a free enterprise system, I'd be proud to welcome all those who desire to come here and make that same dream a reality.

    The only real difficulty I see is the argument that immigrants aren't paying taxes, don't pay social security, cost us money in uninsured hospital bills, etc...The proper response to this, however, is not to ban immigrants but to re-examine why those things exist. I would argue that most immigrants don't want hand outs, thus why the came here in the first place, because relative to where they came from we don't put up barriers to their success. Those few barriers that we do have, as mentioned above, I view as illigetimate and as such are not an argument against immigration, but an argument for their abolishment. If there were no government imposed systems of "redistribution" then it would be a non-issue. Those who wanted to work would work, and those who didn't would perish as they would no longer be sustained by those who do work.

    Sorry for the long statement...just thought I'd add my $0.02.
    This is what bothers me the most. If Illegals want to be here and work crappy jobs that no one else wants, great! But I pay a lot in taxes, insurance, medical premiums, car insurance, etc. and it is unfair that I have to subsidize others who don't pay. If I get in an auto accident with an illegal (common occurance in CO), guess who is paying? Me! My wife works at a hospital and it is really costing her employer to service the ER patients with no insurance. In order to recover those costs, they jack up prices on insured and paying customers. Don't even get me started on the public school system. On top of all this, many illegals get fake papers by stealing identity information (or buying it from someone who stole it) in order to get jobs.

    Somehow, these financial issues need to be solved as well. You can't just grant amnesty and then look other way while the middle class supports them.


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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by wonkadog View Post
    And do people honestly think that the jobs these unlawful people hold would not be filled by legal citizens if they were available? If these illegals were shipped out of the country to get in line maybe the wages for these jobs would actually rise a little bit to levels that allow a person to actual sustain a living on them. Not to mention the fact that unskilled, lawful immigrants would then snatch up the jobs as well.
    You're darn I right I believe the jobs that illegals have currently would be tough to fill if they were deported. I was a manager of a business where part of my job was to hire people to fill manual labor jobs at my location that was perfect for college kids and/or people wanting to start in the business. It quickly became almost a full time position since I had to deal with turnover and/or people barking because they wanted more then $11/hour starting pay to work up a sweat. And this was a job where you could advance relatively quickly and regular raises(if earned). I had a college kid work for me 3 months and quit because he was thinking he should be in management by then. It is regular heartburn for all my fellow managers that I worked with as well.



  14. #14
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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    I believe you, however part of the problem with this whole issue is that the marketplace has driven the wages down due to this cheap labor being around. If we had not gotten ourselves into this situation things might be different as far as finding workers for these jobs. I'm not sure of the solution but if I have to choose between costing some money-hungry businessmen a few dollars and just forgetting that these people are here illegally, I'll have to choose the former. I understand that this could put some businesses out of business but I think that would be the government's responsibility to compensate them (if they were unknowingly hiring them).



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    Re: Who's lobbying for the illegal aliens?

    Quote Originally Posted by wonkadog View Post
    I believe you, however part of the problem with this whole issue is that the marketplace has driven the wages down due to this cheap labor being around. If we had not gotten ourselves into this situation things might be different as far as finding workers for these jobs. I'm not sure of the solution but if I have to choose between costing some money-hungry businessmen a few dollars and just forgetting that these people are here illegally, I'll have to choose the former. I understand that this could put some businesses out of business but I think that would be the government's responsibility to compensate them (if they were unknowingly hiring them).
    It isn't going to cost the "money-hungry" business man if wages are increased to hire legals. It will cost the consumer. The costs will just be passed on. Businesses won't sacrifice profit for wages. I'll guarantee that.


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