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  1. #1
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    Does Vermont have it right?

    In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction - Boston.com

    These could be the best two paragraphs I have read in a long time:

    "The argument for secession is that the U.S. has become an empire that is essentially ungovernable -- it's too big, it's too corrupt and it no longer serves the needs of its citizens," said Rob Williams, editor of Vermont Commons, a quarterly newspaper dedicated to secession.

    "Congress and the executive branch are being run by the multinationals. We have electoral fraud, rampant corporate corruption, a culture of militarism and war. If you care about democracy and self-governance and any kind of representative system, the only constitutional way to preserve what's left of the Republic is to peaceably take apart the empire."

    Too corrupt is absolutely right. I think this starts with the politicians in office and those running for president, BOTH SIDES. All these presidential candidates want to do is stay rich and help their friends stay rich. This country needs new blood in offices and term limits on Senators. There are so many things that need changing it would take me pages to talk about.



  2. #2
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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    I agree with how corrupt Washington is. My question to each Senator/Congressmen/President:

    What was your net worth before you ran for office, while you ran for office, when you were elected and right now?

    If it has gone up more than say... 10% please explain how a full time employee of the American people can increase their wealth by such a large amount while in office?

    -keep.


    The first and best victory is to conquer self; to be conquered by self is of all things most shameful and vile. - Plato

    May you only need 39 acres to turn your rig around. - keep

  3. #3
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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Well it has to be the dog days of early summer if this is the subject matter on this site.

    Boy look in the mirror before you support stuff like this. I've travelled overseas and there are a lot places more corrupt then the U.S.A.

    Don't label Vermont supporting this when it's clear only a few folks are promoting this in that great state.


    Last edited by Bobber; 06-04-2007 at 08:03 PM.

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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    I agree about the corrupt government. However sucession?!!!! Anyone remember the civil war? That kind of sucked.



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    IMO the Bigger Problem is Career Politicians

    There need to be term limits. Senators should be able to do a max of 12 years & reps about 8 years.

    The other problem is 98% of elected officials are bought and paid for by their political party. The party machines need to be dismantled and not allowed to raise money & then funnel it to candidates.

    IMO nothing will change until there is a process like the equal rights amendment went through in the mid-70's.



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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    If you think the politicians/government are not corrupt, I'd take very close look into the system. However, I think one of the best ways to help get around this is to stop blindly supporting the two-party system, and get a legitimate 3rd and 4th party regularly actually being a competition in elections.


    "Seven minutes to glory."

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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Our two party system is horrid! Government is so bi-polar that it can hardly help its own citizens. It's nothing but endless arguments based more on party lines than on real issues.



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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    State governments need more power and control. How can a bloated federal system possibly manage a country this size? Especially with un-democratic, two party elections.



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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Especially with un-democratic, two party elections.
    You do realize, that with statements such as that, people are going to say that it is democratic, but by not voting for the two parties, you're throwing your vote away, right?


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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Wow Consipracy theory at work!

    There are more then two political parties last time I checked. As a matter of fact you can vote for the comunist and green parties if you want.

    I'd suggest you folks move over to a "better" country like Russia, China, let's see any country in the Mid East.

    I'm not saying our system is perfect, but it could be a lot worse.



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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone62 View Post
    You do realize, that with statements such as that, people are going to say that it is democratic, but by not voting for the two parties, you're throwing your vote away, right?
    That is exactly the problem. We need a viable third party. We almost had one once with Ross Perot, but he could just not keep the crazy at bay long enough to get elected. It was only a month or two before the election and he was still in first place before the crazy took control and he went off the deep end.

    But think if he would have won, we could have finally got something completed since he would not have been bowing down to Karl Roves and Carvilles of the political world.


    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin 1775

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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobber View Post
    Wow Consipracy theory at work!

    There are more then two political parties last time I checked. As a matter of fact you can vote for the comunist and green parties if you want.

    I'd suggest you folks move over to a "better" country like Russia, China, let's see any country in the Mid East.

    I'm not saying our system is perfect, but it could be a lot worse.
    I fail to see how the fact that the power of the federal governent being divided into two parties is a "conspiracy theory." The fact is that it's too lopsided for anything to ever change with the corruption in washington until either a) people wake up to it and figure that they can do something about it if they want to, or b) the government finally does something that oversteps it's boundaries and there's a violent revolt. (IE: if they decide to take away the right to bear arms).


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  13. #13
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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by brianhos View Post
    That is exactly the problem. We need a viable third party. We almost had one once with Ross Perot, but he could just not keep the crazy at bay long enough to get elected. It was only a month or two before the election and he was still in first place before the crazy took control and he went off the deep end.

    But think if he would have won, we could have finally got something completed since he would not have been bowing down to Karl Roves and Carvilles of the political world.
    I was with him all the way to the bottom of the deep end! I voted for him twice. Secession is constitutionally legal, as the states granted the power to the federal government, and they have the right to take it back. Lincoln was completely wrong there.

    I agree that we live in the greatest country on earth, but in order for it to stay that way, we need to change the direction, and now. Here's a quote for you....

    "I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." Thomas Jefferson

    I still feel we should stop allowing taxes to be withdrawn from our checks, and see what the government can do without the cash flow until April 15th. It's the only way I can think of that would seriously get their attention. Check out the off topic thread on "question about income taxes. Less severe than secession, but I really think it would work.


    Last edited by Cyclonepride; 06-04-2007 at 09:42 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphor View Post
    Our two party system is horrid! Government is so bi-polar that it can hardly help its own citizens. It's nothing but endless arguments based more on party lines than on real issues.

    I think the absolute worst thing on our ballots in the USA is the party line vote. I think people should be able to answer a question or two about each candidate before they can vote for them. Blind voters are WORSE then people that do not vote.

    How do we make changes people? The politicians are firmly entrenched, voting themselves more power and voting more raises and benefits then most of us will ever see.



  15. #15
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    Re: Does Vermont have it right?

    Wow, what is it with Vermont and the issue of secession? I teach high school history and have used the following story (cnn link below) for one of my lesson plans. Basically it is about the town of Killington VT who is tired of being treated like a cash cow by their own state. Therefore, some of its citizens want to secede and join the state of New Hampshire. Interesting read. BTW, there is a more current article about the Killington issue, but I don't have the link with me (I'm done with school and won't go back to my classroom for at least a couple weeks). Anyway, here's the 2004 link:
    CNN.com - Killington residents vote to secede from Vermont - Mar. 4, 2004


    Utah Utes, Illinois Illini. The University of Pennsylvania thought about following this pattern by calling themselves the Pennsylvania Pencils. However, they were afraid their students would start chanting "We're No. 2"

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