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  1. #1
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    Deace has another article

    There's another article up today about Avalos.
    Scout.com: The Chaplain Controversy Continues


    Exaggeration is a BILLION times worse than understating.

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    Re: Deace has another article

    Quote Originally Posted by wartknight View Post
    There's another article up today about Avalos.
    Scout.com: The Chaplain Controversy Continues
    I thought he did a good job clarifying the Separation of Church and State issue...



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    Re: Deace has another article

    I thought he did a much better job on this article than the last one.....



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    Re: Deace has another article

    Its tough to argue with a lot of the things he points out this week. Using a tactic many people anymore aren't used to-using facts to back up an argument. I'm sure many will find something though.


    Exaggeration is a BILLION times worse than understating.

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    Re: Deace has another article

    Notice how he won't answer the question: "Who is funding the chaplain position"? That's interesting.



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    Re: Deace has another article

    It might be because "Who is funding the chaplain position" is "None of your (or our) business."

    Either that, or it's time to break out that tinfoil hat again.



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    Re: Deace has another article

    He answered the question-"How is it going to be funded" Which is really all anyone was concerned about in the first place.


    Exaggeration is a BILLION times worse than understating.

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    Re: Deace has another article

    Quote Originally Posted by Nedrick View Post
    I thought he did a good job clarifying the Separation of Church and State issue...
    Yes he does, except for those twenty-some Supreme Court cases that suggest otherwise. And he avoids the Establishment Clause altogether.

    " In Engel v. Vitale 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court determined it unconstitutional by a vote of 6-1 for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when it is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation. As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion. However, they may not lead such prayers in class, or in other "official" school settings such as assemblies or programs, including even "non-sectarian" teacher-led prayers, e.g. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country," which was part of the prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the Court's decision. As the Court stated:

    The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.

    The court noted that it "is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America."

    Now, I'm not pointing this out as a damnation of the ISU chaplain issue - to that point I don't really care. I'm relatively certain it's going to happen which is fine. But once again, another instance of Deace's use of "selective" facts to support his position. To read that, one would think that "Separation of Church and State" is merely a made up assertation and the courts have never even addressed the topic. A "separation" most certainly exists



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    Re: Deace has another article

    Quote Originally Posted by joepublic View Post
    Notice how he won't answer the question: "Who is funding the chaplain position"? That's interesting.
    "
    3. Who’s going to pay for this?
    For the 1,340,683rd time, this will be paid for with private money. Private money. That’s right, private money. You got that? Private money. No, really, it will be paid for with private"

    -Steve Deace


    He did answer it..."Private Fundiing"...which means "Private Donors".....local business people....NOT the university. My understanding is that the Cyclone Grid Iron Club is provideing he $$$$ to the FCA. The "Counslelor" will be an employee of the FCA. I am really amazed that people are having such a hard time with the term "Private Funding." The answer to the question "where is the money coming from?" Has been answered...over and over agian. Deace even answered it in a sarcastic way in his article. Private funding means the money is not coming from a "Public" money pool....ie - The University.



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    Re: Deace has another article

    I'd rather read about some of the things the players are doing in the summer to get ready for fall.

    How is Chizik adjusting to Ames?

    Have Bolt and McFarland become diet/workout buddies?

    What does it mean to guys like Meyer and Blythe entering their senior seasons as 4-year starters.

    This Chaplin situation is a "serious" issue I 'spose, yet it's getting very, very old. And IMO, received 100x the airtime it deserved.



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    Re: Deace has another article

    Quote Originally Posted by joepublic View Post
    Notice how he won't answer the question: "Who is funding the chaplain position"? That's interesting.
    Now that's just funny!


    Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine

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    Re: Deace has another article

    So why doesn't he just say that? Why the cloak and dagger of "Private money"? I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that....

    "Private money" makes a big difference if that "private donor" is somone ala Gene Chizik or Jamie Pollard.....



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    Re: Deace has another article

    Quote Originally Posted by DaddyMac View Post
    Yes he does, except for those twenty-some Supreme Court cases that suggest otherwise. And he avoids the Establishment Clause altogether.

    " In Engel v. Vitale 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court determined it unconstitutional by a vote of 6-1 for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when it is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation. As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion. However, they may not lead such prayers in class, or in other "official" school settings such as assemblies or programs, including even "non-sectarian" teacher-led prayers, e.g. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country," which was part of the prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the Court's decision. As the Court stated:

    The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.

    The court noted that it "is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America."

    Now, I'm not pointing this out as a damnation of the ISU chaplain issue - to that point I don't really care. I'm relatively certain it's going to happen which is fine. But once again, another instance of Deace's use of "selective" facts to support his position. To read that, one would think that "Separation of Church and State" is merely a made up assertation and the courts have never even addressed the topic. A "separation" most certainly exists
    "In Engel v. Vitale 370 U.S. 421 (1962)," Is not really applicable in the ISU Chaplian situation. The Supreme court ruled agianst *state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools* Or for faculty or students to lead a prayer in the class room, HOWEVER,

    "As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion."

    So, this decision actually supports the Chaplian at ISU. You can't just grab any ruleing.....high light what you want and twist it to make a point.



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    Re: Deace has another article

    I am bookmarking this thread... should be good reading.

    - keep.


    The first and best victory is to conquer self; to be conquered by self is of all things most shameful and vile. - Plato

    May you only need 39 acres to turn your rig around. - keep

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    Re: Deace has another article

    Well, to help you out..

    I highlighted the relevant points. But unlike your boy Heir Deace, I posted the entire passage.

    How, exactly, does it support a Chaplain at ISU? I clearly stated below that it doesn't even dismiss the idea. What this passage indicates is that a person can do what ever they want, whenever, but the state cannot provide for that, i.e. a non-denominational chaplain or prayer.

    Here's the key point I was making

    "To read that (Deace's article), one would think that "Separation of Church and State" is merely a made up assertation and the courts have never even addressed the topic.

    And once again, to indicate that I wasn't using it as a damnation of the Chaplain idea

    "Now, I'm not pointing this out as a damnation of the ISU chaplain issue - to that point I don't really care"



    I amended this post due to it's mean-natured response. To RedStorm and others who read it, I apologize.


    Last edited by DaddyMac; 06-04-2007 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Disrepectful post

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